Editorial Cartoonist from South Dakota
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July 17th, 2012 | Art, Event Center, Food, Photography, Sioux Falls
Actually, I have to give props to my cousin who lives in Florida, she snapped this picture, but it seemed like it fit . . .
They should have moved in where the failed ny pizza joint sits vacant downtown I guess.
Another current/major Arena tenant that WON’T be part of the new EC complex? The Storm released its entire roster today!
Financial trouble had been rumored. Might this be the end of indoor football here?
The release of the whole roster was expected I believe. I think they even discussed it in an interview on one of the local newscasts.
@ Justin, great advice as that place’s failure had absolutely nothing to do with location nor food quality.
Your comments reek as those of one of the anti-downtown ignorami. Perhaps you should make some time to go downtown and experience some of those locally owned gems.
Or don’t….perhaps you’re more comfortable at the Mall or WalMart where you can see the building from your parking spot and you sleep better knowing you paid the bare minimum for Chinese made consumables.
I would rather open a restaurant downtown anytime and twice on Tuesday more than I would in the “industrial park.”
Burrito Boy and the food trucks are going to be rolling in the dough come august with all the construction workers.
Don’t think of it as me bashing downtown, think of it as me bashing the people that are so bitter the EC isn’t downtown that they hope it fails.
Hope it fails?
I don’t think it will fail, it is what it is, but we will be subsidizing the shit out of it for years and years.
You may be right, but at worst it wont be more than a couple of million in any year.
I think, having just read that Aecom report, it is obvious why the current site was selected.
AECOM Report was a joke – riddled with factual errors, and void of important info and stats that city officials withheld. But it served its intended purpose – to sell the Arena site.
well it showed one thing that makes it quite obvious why there is a large group of people still complaining about location: The downtown site would have put a lot more money in the hands of local business owners.
Doesn’t sound that bad, unless you own a business somewhere else in the city and wonder why those people should be able to steer this to a site that is projected to produce less fiscal impact to the City coffers.
I certainly have never signed an affidavit, but I’m glad that is an option.
Oops wrong thread sorry. Please delete if possible, dl.
Wait. You’re saying the downtown site offered less of an economic impact? Did you read the part about how a downtown event center would serve as a catalyst for $500 million dollars in commercial development? The arena site only offers $57 million. That’s nearly a 10:1 return in property taxes that MMM pissed away. Who knows how much sales taxe revenue we’re missing out on by foregoing a downtown site.
Justin – Do you pour salt in your open wounds for fun? While doing lot’s of drugs of course . . . .
Exactly my point. Why do I care how much money some individuals would make?
Private business benefited more downtown.
The bigger fiscal impact was at the arena.
Of course the people that wanted to profit personally are going to disagree.
Plus I believe the funds from additional sales tax revenue accounts for the incremental increase in property value.
Now if only there were enough parking to serve existing businesses and a gazillion dollars to bring a freeway downtown .
I see that isn’t where it is. Maybe it isn’t there.
I don’t care.
Now you guys are going to tell me a downtown EC will be profitable if you are adding 5 million a year in incremental revenue.
That is just a 1% mill rate on your 500 million of investment. Just think for 500 million we could build 100 new restaurants downtown. Is there anything fishy about that conclusion. Use common sense.
500mm is the number of supposed development in progress (frankly you could buy every building on Phillips for that). The value actually seen as incremental was 50m. With a net city only mill rate of 4.7 per 1000 that works out to less than 250k annually in incremental city revenue.
But in the pixie laden world of the dowtown wingnuts, it seems reasonable to make a statement that a 100 mm dollar events center will produce 500 mm of investment downtown? Heck, let’s build two if all that money is on the fence.
Are you sure it isn’t 500 billion?
Would that before or after you SUBTRACT the revenue from the net result?
So how DIDN’T NY Express Pizza’s demise have anything to do with quality? I will admit the pizza was “OK” but it didn’t absolutely knock me over. But the service was absolutely abysmal. I went there once and had possibly the worst waiter I’ve ever had at a restaurant in my entire life. The guy was a total weirdo. Oh and it doesn’t help that the owner of the place was a total wifebeater.
They had an opportunity to be that pizza place that *everyone* goes to after the bar (a la Pizza Luce in Minneapolis) because they are drunk and hungry but they totally blew it. That really bugs me – there is nowhere easy to go to for food in this town after about 10-11pm, especially downtown. It makes the experience of going downtown feel incomplete, like I might as well sit in my front yard and drink liquor instead.
I think the speculation is that his marital and associated legal troubles are to blame.
I’m kind of disappointed too, a good NY slice is missing here.
Didn’t take long for the Cicis space to get snatched up by Noodles
“That really bugs me – there is nowhere easy to go to for food in this town after about 10-11pm, especially downtown.”
That is probably because if you take everyone out of every bar downtown and put them in one group, you still have fewer people than come streaming out of Borrowed Buck’s at 1:50am.
That might be a bit of a stretch, but clearly the number of bar patrons heavily favor the area around 41st, 57th, Louise, and Marion, so that is where the late night food options are. Add Bucks together with 18th Amendment, The Lie’brary, Billy Frogs, Woodys, Rookies, and even BW3 along with the 40 or so other bars in the region and you soon have huge numbers. I love my downtown bars, but most of them can only hold about 15-20 people before you don’t have a place to sit. It is just a sad reality – I can’t tell you how many times I have walked into Monks, the Paramount, the Copper Lounge, or even JL Beers and been unable to find a seat… which is awesome that they are busy, but it does force people to head elsewhere to where there are large outdoor patios and ample seating.
This is probably why the EC should have been built behind Lowes – it could even have a lake pond next door to it to knock down the ugliness of a 25 acre parking lot, and massive development would surround it.
I suppose Justin is part of Minnehaha County’s crack team of tax assessors. He sounds like the same guy touting “Quarrydome.”
Or someone who just started attending ‘Thumb suckers Anonymous’ meetings.
And you are the guys who don’t know the difference between revenue and expense and claim there is half a billion in capital ready to swoop in and save everybody downtown (and then in turn save us all).
If facts were currency your pockets would be inside out.
Of course, there must be some conspiracy since I disagree with you. It’s not like there was a vote and 58% of the people agreed with me.
I bet a few of them know how to read financial statements, too.
You are so clever. You should have your own talk show.
I think our original convo was about ‘revenue’ and ‘profit’ not expense. But hey, spin it how you want to.
“It’s not like there was a vote and 58% of the people agreed with me.”
Oh, how I could fill you in . . . .
yes and you don’t know how to put revenue and profit into an equation apparently.
I don’t really think the Donald Trump birther line is effective. If you have something to say, say it.
If what you are going to imply is voter fraud, it isn’t something to tiptoe around.
I’ll stick to the public record and you can stay on cue with the backwards ass remarks.
“If what you are going to imply is voter fraud, it isn’t something to tiptoe around.”
Are you implying that? I’m not.
I think the election was (somewhat) fair. I would aim more at marketing fraud then anything.
But you don’t seem to have a handle on the public documents that have been shared, how are you supposed to be a qualified arbiter of what was marketed.
HA! This coming from the jamoke who claimed in a previous thread that the Lincoln arena report shows profitable examples of arenas when in fact it says the exact opposite (p. 78).
I showed you the Income Statements for both Omaha and Dubuque.
You are the guy who overstated the development downtown by $450 million.
The current location, according the report to anybody capable of understanding what income and expense is, provides the best chance to break even or even have moderate profits.
And if it DID result in $500 million + being invested in downtown (like I said enough to buy the entire downtown), you would somehow claim it wouldn’t be profitable either I’m sure.
If you guys want to be taken serious by the VAST majority that voted for this, you are going to have to add some detail and a little debater’s argument forming to at least explain yourselves.
Omaha? Yes. Dubuque? No. Overstatement? My bad. Mild dyslexia. Where’s the analysis of the potential sales tax revenue. . . A glaring omission to say the least. Profitability at the chosen site? We will see.
What about page 78 of the Lincoln report? Stop dodging the question.
So you found a quote that says they often lose money from Lincolns report. I never said that was impossible.
You claimed making money is laughable. And then after seeing multiple examples you changed your mind.
Dubuque no? Ok its quite clear you have zero reading comprehension.
Instead of trying to catch one thing you think I was wrong about, try making an argument for downtown that doesn’t include the claim that the assessed base is going to go up by half a billion.
UTry to make a point, then you can try to back it uo Jethro.
Sorry phone. Make a point. Back it up.
Your first point was it is laughable for me to claim this could have a net positive impact. Then you provided an example that said you were wrong. Then I provided two examples proving you were wrong.
Half a billion….. There is some false marketing for you parasites that want a handout for your home neighborhood.
Grand Forks saw a profit finally in its 4th year.
Orlando’s BB arena GASP ……..
Profitable in its first year:
Are you guys banned from google or something?
oops that was a typo on Grand Forks, clearly it was 6th year.
But Fargo is struggling, which is what you should have brought up to counter me: http://www.wday.com/event/article/id/64123/publisher_ID/29/
I haven’t changed my mind. Sure, some arenas make money, but most lose $250,000 to $1.3 million annually. I backed this point numerous times. You simply choose to ignore the references I cite.
Here’s another interesting article for you…to ignore…again.
I think you guys should meet and hug it out.
….backwards ass remarks
….UTry to make a point, then you can try to back it up Jethro
….for you parasites that want
Justin, I think that you have not learned the art of disagreeing with civility!!
I’m actually having a hard time thinking of something that would be worse for downtown than this. You know that there was once a proposal for a freeway that would have followed 10th/12th from 29 to 229, passing just south of downtown along 14th Street? And that the Argus Leader’s editorial board once advocated tearing down the Old Courthouse for more parking?
We should all be thankful that there were some people back then with enough foresight to prevent such tragedies from occurring.
Cr if disagreeing with civility were required here none of the goofballs that support their arguments for downtown with character assassinations of the mayor rather than facts would never have made a post.
Other guy, I don’t disagree that most lose money, never did. It was your outrageously arrogant response to my suggestion this could make money that set me off. Then your lack of knowledge of the public documents and the claim of a half billion in capital coming in downtown really set me off as it is crazier than any accusations you have made against opponents of subsidizing downtown.
But I will admit that acoe report was horribly written and lacked a financial summary that is easy for somebody that didn’t work on Wall Street to read.
Still, I leave you with a few points that cannot be argued against without lying:
Some events centers make money.
Our center has a chance to make money in a given year.
The acoe report projects the best chance for us to make money is at the current location.
The acoe report projects more private income downtown, so it shouldn’t surprise anybody that there is a group willing to say anything to stuff their pockets.
we voted 58-42, one of the widest gaps I ever recall against your position. If you want to crucify the electorate go ahead.
Well if you can’t have a freeway you shouldn’t have an events center there.
Downtown just couldn’t handle it. You’ve got owners complaining about HHH and HSN, they don’t even like the free traffic events today give them. Imagine how difficult it would be for them if they had to serve 15k people and maybe even (gasp) open their doors on a Sunday.
Here are some undeniable things about downtown my arguments haven’t led me to mention:
Minerva’s and Sushi Masa might be the two best Sioux Falls restaurants in my rankings.
The Sculpture Walk is awesome.
The patio on the Philips Street Diner is awesome.
Sinful Things. Need I say more?
Brasserie Bros is my favorite newish restaurant in town.
sorry Philips Ave!!
But what subsidies is the Alerus center getting. If they get a $340,000 subsidy from the city every year, how can you say that is a profit? More liek breaking even. Curious if you could look into this and see what kind of subsidies this place gets. Subsidies are revenue, but they are not PROFITS.
I attended 13 months of EC meetings (2009 Task Force) and many of the Mayor’s EC presentations (2011).
The Mayor and his Team conveyed many half-truths to the public in their presentations. It worked to get the vote passed, but these are misrepresentations and false assumptions that will surface over the upcoming years. I wonder what the “spin” will be then!!??
Some, but not all, of the reasons for not supporting an EC downtown were:
**The railroad relocation issue had not been resolved.
The proposed DT location for an EC was just north of Cherpa. When I asked Don Dethlefs of Sink Combs Dethlefs about the proximity of the tracks, his reply was, “we’re going to design the building so it is curved on that corner to accommodate the tracks”.
***The DT EC would have been a stand-alone facility with NO major tenant. (Don’t read into this that I believe convention business will be a successful major tenant at the current site. I know from being at the 2009 EC Task Force meetings that they came to this conclusion by default — they had no other major tenant to submit to CSL for the pro forma.)
With just these two reasons alone, do you really believe that Sioux Falls voters would have cast a “YES” vote for a DT EC?
I have often contended that ‘ANYWHERE’ but the Arena location would have been better. If they wanted to see the best economic impact they would have built it on the land Sanford was willing to give us. While I would have like to see it DT (which would have been more of an economic impact then the arena site) I still think the Arena site is doomed.
CR, thank you very much. You made a point and an argument. I think voters would have approved a DT EC if that’s what had been proposed and put on the ballot. Whether or not voters would have chosen it in a head to head election is another question we won’t know (frankly I don’t care).
DL, you made a lot of claims about economics but didn’t have any examples or arguments why they were true other than quoting yourself.
Do I have to?
There have been several studies, as Bond has pointed out, that the DT location would have had a bigger EC impact. But I think a monkey could figure that out.
I’m not going to try to change your mind, it sounds like it has already been made up.
But it is kinda like when I decided to buy a home DT. I wanted to be in a neighborhood that was established and I have never regretted it.
Well I haven’t seen any studies that indicate that, they may change my mind although it won’t matter much.
I’ve got my own neighborhood I wish would get some city-funded attraction to drive traffic and home prices, there aren’t any good places to eat here.
@Justin – FYI – Freeways are specifically designed to handle LOW VOLUMES of traffic at HIGH SPEEDS. Meanwhilke, grid street systems are designed to handle HIGH VOLUMES of traffic at LOW SPEEDS.
What do you get when you try to put high volumes of traffic on freeways – answer: Standstill. Nobody going anywhere fast.
DT freeway would make traffic WORSE – not better.
Facts – from the DT location there are 5 routes to freeways that are ALL less distance than the 3 – total from the Arena site.
The Arena site will have WORSE traffic problems than the DT site would have had.
Ask ANY traffic engineer.
FACT: You have never been to a “real” concert if you believe the existing infrastructure can handle the in and out traffic in a way that wouldn’t make the paying public spend an extra hour in gridlock in your neighborhood just because you want them to come to your neighborhood.
Also, ask anybody that actually understands business how investing in real estate with poor access works.
I’ll wait to see your references from traffic engineers.
Ruf is right. I have been told by people who even work for the city and helped with the parking and traffic study tell me the same thing. DT would have been a better location, just for those reasons alone.
Justin, while I can’t tell you who Ruf is, I can say this HE HAS THE CREDENTIALS, trust me.
So what’s the biggest concert you and ruf have been to?
Who would you pay over 100 bucks to see?
I saw the Police at the Qwest in 2008 and tickets were $227 (but my friend won them).
The biggest concert was probably a toss-up between Edgefest in 1999 (right outside of MPLS) and the Midtown Music Festival in Atlanta (2003). Actually in 2003 I saw a ton of good stuff. In Mpls I saw the Donnas, The Pretenders (should have say Link Wray, but the Fineline burned down that night, so I missed the concert, and luckily did not die) I also saw ‘X’ at First Avenue. In SF, I saw Dwight Yokam and Wilco (both played the Pavilion. Richard Thompson at the Orpheum and Tom Petty at the Arena. Very good year for music. But I think some of my memorable shows were at small clubs like the Pomp Room (Danzig, Fugazi, Robbie Fulks [only about 6 people at that show] Todd Snider [numerous times] SonVolt, The Rev, Supersuckers [lost a tooth]. Lucinda Williams at First Avenue, The Hellacopters at the Entry with Glucifer and the New Bomb Turks. Rancid in Seattle.
I could go on and on . . .
I would pay well over $100 to see Tom Waits in concert, my musical hero.
Tell me the arena site was a good idea when;
1. It’s profitable
2. It pays back the taxpayers who paid for it.
3. We don’t have to add more parking since they said we had plenty
Until those things happen it’s not a good idea. It’s a big freakin’ loan that 100% of us pay for with money meant to be used for things OTHER than events centers.
Give me $350,000 and I can convince some people my idea is good too.
Successful? We’ve successfully borrowed a ton of money. Success hasn’t happened yet for the arena. NOt even close.
I saw Tom Waits in Boston on the Mule Variations tour. Transplendent. I paid 800 for two front row Neil Young tickets and gave one away at Nokia live.
I’m glad to hear we will both be customers. That’s what I wanted to hear.
The reason this will be a success even if it is cash flow negative is people want culture and to feel able to have these experiences, and SD can’t do anything to keep its best and brightest home. At least trying to compete with Sioux City and Rapid is a step forward.
we can argue about the location but it isn’t going to change anything. I think we have a lot in common even though we haven’t been using tones that most intellectuals use.
And to the other guy, here is 350,000. Not sure what kind of units you wanted or what it relates to, but sure, show me the plan.
Speaking of paying for things you don’t want, I want my money back for paying for your kids’ school, anybody that thinks that argument is going to fly.
…ask anybody that actually understands business…
Based on the posts you’ve accumulated here of late, I’d be curious to know your business background. You do understand why business teachers are teachers don’t you?
I’m glad to hear we will both be customers. That’s what I wanted to hear.
Customers of what? There’s nothing they can put in that 12,000 seat building for $100 that will get me in the place. Third class sporting teams. Over the hill bands. That’s all the place can offer. Nothing more than what we can currently serve up.
Did I say I was going to be a customer at the new EC?
If you wont be a customer your opinions are as biased as I thought. Another person begging for us to subsidize your neighborhood for a facility you don’t want.
No I’m not a professor. But I understand if you went to school in state and were taught by either Staggers or Blanchard why you might have low opinions of the profession.
Apparently fifth grade where they teach the difference between fact and opinion wasn’t well staffed for you either. If I were a debate coach I would explain to you how to use facts to back up your opinion.
But paying for your kids school isn’t my job so educating you certainly isn’t. And subsidizing a bunch of old farts that want their property values to go up while not attending any events is certainly not my responsibility.
We know this much about Justin so far, he is willing to drop $800 for concert tickets and he worked on Wall Street. Having spent a great deal of time in the east coast, these two things fit with the overpaid, over opinionated Wall Street crowd. I am glad you are here to help us understand the mentality of Wall Street greed.
I have no illusion or desire to offend Justin in this comment. We in South Dakota don’t get to see the thought process of the east coast first hand. The more some people speak or write, the more we see the soul. Keep participating Justin, we need and appreciate your opinions.
Who said I’m greedy just because I’ve done well? I thought the “libertarians” around here had respect for that?
Lots of people move back here, it won’t hurt you to hear an opinion of somebody that has a different life than you. I thought that was the point.
It seems this is less of a public blog than a place where a bunch of sheltered old men who dine on the weekend talk online to reassure themselves of their opinions six days a week.
I’m open to different things. Without meeting you anonymously online I would never have read:
“Basilica of Sacré-Cœur at 3pm mass with boys choir and me up in the dome. The closest I have ever been able to flight.”
As William Shakespeare said, “You can’t write this shit”.
Justin, never said we did not want to hear your story. Not all of us are libertarians. We are citizens who are communicating on a forum exchanging ideas with points of view. Some of us have traveled widely, lived in a couple of dozen states and have experienced a lot. It is because of these experiences, listening to other points of view is easy for me.
The Basilica of Sacré-Cœur comment you are referring has a problem? If you have ever traveled to Paris you might have visited the church. It is one of the most beautiful churches in the world. Not being a religious person, I had a chance to be in the dome during the 3pm mass with the full boys choir singing 150+ feet below me. The experience was one to never forget. You can write it anyway you want, the experience was fulfilling. The acoustics in the dome filled the air to a hypnotic point.
You actually are a welcome addition to this forum. Many things you ask and comment are on the mark. So we do enjoy your comments because this is a forum to discuss and not inhibit ideas.
Glad to get the whole story. I was just joking again how with the little boys it seemed odd.
Sacré-Cœur is my favorite place in Paris. Although I prefer to walk over by the street artists. I guess that is Monmartre though technically, right?
I’m sorry if I seem short, I know poor tone can eliminate the possibility for a great conversation!
I understand if you went to school in the state and were taught by either Staggers or Blanchard why you might have low opinions of the profession.
Justin is obviously not aware of Dr. Staggers credentials and his many years of related public service both at the state and local level.
In what ways have you contributed to our community, Justin?
Staggers has actually taught in Germany and the Ukraine and his youngest son (who he adopted) has served in the Peace Corps for several years – ALL OVER THE WORLD. You know little about Dr. Staggers and his knowledge of world matters. You best tread lightly.
BTW, Justin, how was your trip to Kansas?
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