Recently the AL had a story about how outdoor pool usage was poor this past season due to cooler weather (it really was just a propaganda piece for the Indoorers). So if the indoor pool fails at the polls at Spellerberg, maybe the city should consider heating the new outdoor pool there? Just imagine, you could be swimming outdoors well into October! It is not uncommon to have heated outdoor pools. When I lived in the Seattle area there was a water park in Federal Way that was completely heated. I also have a friend in SF that has an outdoor in-ground pool that has a heater on it, he has swam in it all the way until the end of October.

Let’s face it, people prefer to swim outdoors, that is why outdoor pools have a greater attendance then indoor pools. Duh. If I was the Spellerberg ladies, I would be pushing for this in the design of a new outdoor pool at Spellerberg.

38 Thoughts on “Should the city consider building a heated outdoor pool?

  1. The apartment complex that I live in(not a luxury one) has two heated outdoor pools. From what I have been told they are about 84 degrees.

  2. I should have added they open the pools on Memorial Day weekend and close them the day after Labor Day.

  3. Titelist on October 9, 2013 at 6:58 pm said:

    Congresswoman Noem is enjoying her publicly funded indoor heated pool at the Capital. Labeled an “essential government” function so it wasn’t shut down (like Mount Rushmore).

    Congresswomen Noem , Congressional indoor pools!

  4. Titleist on October 9, 2013 at 7:01 pm said:

    Congresswoman Noem is enjoying her publicly funded indoor heated pool at the Capital. Labeled an “essential government” function so it wasn’t shut down (like Mount Rushmore).

    Congresswomen Noem , Congressional indoor pools!

  5. rufusx on October 9, 2013 at 7:29 pm said:

    Had “black bottom” pools in house and apartments I lived in in LA. Natural solar heat.

  6. Nature Lover on October 9, 2013 at 7:45 pm said:

    Maybe the cost of this should be explored! I would expect this to be a hit with the public.

  7. Yes perhaps we could also think about running radiant heating pipe under the greens at Elmwood to melt the snow and allow us to golf well into December (when the nasty cross-winds make it all but impossible to hit a straight shot anyway).

    Yes that was sarcasm.

    I have my doubts warm water would attract significantly more people because attendance at our pools doesn’t appear to coincide with changes in weather, but rather the start of school. Take this year for example – we had very high temps well after the pools closed, but even the last couple of pools that remained open weren’t busy at all – and that is factoring in that most of the other pools had already closed.

    So if we heat a pool to keep it open longer, ask yourself what percentage of citizens would actually benefit from it vs. the cost of heating a massive outdoor pool. A cost benefit analysis would probably prove this to be as dumb as a black bottom pool.

    I suppose I should probably expand upon the black bottom pool comment since I don’t want to offend rufus for mentioning them, and in theory it sounds like a sound idea… but in practice it doesn’t actually work (I note rufus didn’t suggest the idea – he merely mentioned he had experience with them in LA).

    The truth is, in a larger pool the darker bottom will make zero difference in water temps because the heat of the sun is absorbed in the top 6-12″ of water. If you were to paint half of your pool black and the other half white, there would be no temperture difference between the two and the only reason the water at most pools isn’t significantly colder at the bottom is because pools continually circulate the water to prevent this (and humans swimming mixes the water as well). However jump into a pool that doesn’t have a working pump and you’ll notice the water temp at the bottom is significantly lower than the top.

    Second, and perhaps most importantly, black bottom pools make it more difficult to see if someone is trapped or is having difficulty under water. The entire idea of using a white or light blue is to help visibility – this is a safety feature, and a dark color will result in greater risk to those swimming in the pool if a lifeguard can’t easily spot them.

    Probably also worth noting that dark colors decrease depth perception and therefore result in more injuries from people diving and jumping into pools.

    There is also the fact that a dark color makes cleaning the pool more difficult and the fact that it is less enjoyable to swim in a black hole… but those are minor points.

    Hopefully you’ll understand why 99% of public pools are either white or light blue. Dark bottom pools are sometimes used for asethics and there was a time where people thought they would naturally heat the water, but that was debunked… so if you see a new dark bottom pool installed today rest assured it is based upon personal preference and not science or safety.

  8. The AL had the figures on how you take an old crappy pool and upgrade it with some modern amenities people will use it 3-5X more. Drake is a prime example, we use it and we see people from all over the City there. That’s not propaganda, that’s just the way it is.

    So no, we shouldn’t simply build a heated outdoor pool. The Y is closing their pools and that will leave a huge void in the swim lesson availability. The consultants are spot on; Spellerberg is central, paid for, there’s plenty of room (footprint will be about the same) and the pool will be in the top 3 for usage during the summer and #1 in usage for the other 8 months of the year.

    Also, if you want to make the pool energy efficient there’s tons of ways to do that today that weren’t feasible 20 or 30 years ago. You can put some glass on the Southern side to get passive solar gain, you can go geothermal and that will likely pay for itself within the first 8 years, you can install a small windmill on it to power stuff like the parking lot lights. Make the place a LEED building and the taxpayer will recoup the initial investment faster over time.

  9. “I have my doubts warm water would attract significantly more people because attendance at our pools”

    Oh, I think it would. I am just saying this as an option if an indoor pool isn’t built there. You could have one of the smaller pools heated.

    I agree Sy that we should consider a LEED certified indoor pool, but still think it should be built at the HSchools or Sanford Sports Complex, then of course we would have the cost of a bronze swimming T Denny 🙂

  10. Seriously – propaganda for the indoorers? The numbers are the numbers. You can’t make them up and as an outdoor pool – Spellerberg has suffered for years as the least attended pool as kids have to actually swim at that pool instead of floating around in a circle in between pieces of pizza and orange Fanta.

  11. You are right, the numbers were correct, and Janel is a good reporter, wonder how long it will take city hall to rein her in? But really? A story about how outdoor pool attendance was down because of cooler weather? Puff piece.

  12. When I go to the polls in April 2014, I will be basing my vote on these numbers.

    All information has been taken directly from the consultant’s report (see siouxfalls.org).

    Page 28: This is the scenario the consultant has recommended:

    Option 5: Large Indoor 50 meter by 25 yard competition pool with springboard diving and a separate 3,750 sq. ft. indoor leisure pool with current channel, and waterslide.

    Page 38: Capital Cost of a Large Indoor Pool

    Project Cost $18,519,000 (this has increased to 19.4m per Director of Parks and Rec, Don Kearney-Council Work Session, July 17, 2013)

    Attendance
    80,104

    Operating Costs:

    2013

    Revenue 355,823
    Expense 1,048,552
    Operating Cashflow -$692,729

    2014

    Revenue 364,598
    Expense 1,074,766
    Operating Cashflow -$710,168

    2015

    Revenue 373,483
    Expense 1,101,635
    Operating Cashflow -$728,152

    2016

    Revenue 382,477
    Expense 1,129,176
    Operating Cashflow -$746,699

    2017

    Revenue 391,582
    Expense 1,157,405
    Operating Cashflow -$765,824

    The capital cost of the indoor pool ($19.4m) will require bonding.

    According to the consultant’s numbers, the operating costs for the indoor pool for the first five years alone, will be $3,643,572.

    As a way of illustrating this number, our community could have SEVEN new neighborhood parks for the $3.6m!!

  13. Winston on October 10, 2013 at 6:12 pm said:

    No need to worry, the heat will be back soon with a vengeance. Let’s say our tax dollars:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/10/science/earth/by-2047-coldest-years-will-be-warmer-than-hottest-in-past.html?_r=0

  14. Winston on October 10, 2013 at 6:12 pm said:

    “say?”…. save….

  15. rufusx on October 10, 2013 at 9:43 pm said:

    Craig – actual scientific studies of the effect of black bottom pools on ambient water temperatures have found there is some effect – perhaps not “significant” – but some at least nominal effect (1-2 degrees).

  16. rufusx on October 10, 2013 at 9:48 pm said:

    PS – Heating an outdoor pool is a really really stooopid idea.

    Here’s a less stupid idea – build a pool with big slide open hanger-sized doors/walls – indoor in cold weather – open to the breezes in summer.

  17. SD Windbreaker on October 11, 2013 at 12:52 am said:

    Unless the Park Dept let this go to hell to, Spellerberg, Kuehn, Mckennan, Frank Olson, and the older-rebuilt pools like Terrace in Sioux falls have heaters already on site. I know the Spellerberg pool heater was working yet in 1997. Maybe they were discontinued as a cost saving measure. They were spendy to run.

  18. rufus, I believe those “studies” you refer to only apply to small private pools that don’t share the depth or size of a larger pool. In larger pools, the amount of water results in no recognizable temperate difference.

    Besides, even if it was 1-2 degrees… is that worth the risk of not being able to see a child struggling on the bottom of the pool, or increasing risk to those who drive in without being able to recognize the water depth? I think not – and therefore in my opinion dark bottom pools are just as stupid of an idea as heating outdoor pools.

    Makes me wonder what our local visionaries will think of next… perhaps we can install solar panels and wind turbines to power all the pool equipment – that technology exists and works although it typically has a 25-35 year payback period if you don’t factor in the cost of the money (ie interest expense)… unfortunatley the equipment typically has a usable lifespan of about 20 years, making it a bit difficult to sell the idea to anyone who understands math.

  19. cr “As a way of illustrating this number, our community could have SEVEN new neighborhood parks for the $3.6m!!”

    at $500K per that’s a pretty small and/or bare bones park if it’s anywhere within the city limits of SF, but then again you wouldn’t be happy with anything but the absolute minimum in terms of the City doing a project, right?

  20. She said ‘Parks’ not ‘Pools’ Sy.

  21. Nevermind, I am dumb today, hits every Friday.

  22. LOL..no worries DL,

    But to further my point, even if someone donates the land, it’s not difficult to spend $300K on a simple asphalt parking lot + grading + sitework. Fencing? bathrooms? playground equipment? lighting? landscaping? A $500K park without donated land is a gravel lot and rented porta potties.

  23. The cost of $350,000 to $500,000 for a neighborhood park is a number often quoted by our City’s Director of Parks and Recreation, Don Kearney.

    You can’t find a more accurate source than that Sy!

    So, yes

    According to the consultant’s numbers, the operating costs for the indoor pool for the first five years alone, will be $3,643,572.

    As a way of illustrating this number, our community could have SEVEN new neighborhood parks for the $3.6m!

  24. I have often wondered why they are referred to as swimming pools. I can see one of the pools at the apartment complex where I live, and in the five years that I have lived in this apartment I have seen one person actually swimming in it. You hear people saying they are going swimming, but all I ever see them do is jumping up and down in the water, basically horsing around.

  25. Titleist on October 11, 2013 at 10:02 pm said:

    Might be something to consider when the Parks dept redoes Kuehn Park ….. after the indoor pool is finished at Spellerberg. Kuehn park needs an upgrade too.

  26. anonymous on October 11, 2013 at 10:20 pm said:

    Titleist

    For someone as well-informed as you are, it appears you haven’t taken the time to read the consultant’s 78 page City-Wide Aquatic Facilities Master Plan.

  27. rufusx on October 12, 2013 at 8:40 am said:

    cr – wanna have some fun with numbers do ya? $3.6MMover 5 years amounts to just about 1 CENT per person per day. Oh the horror – the wastefulness – a whole friggin’ penny – EVERY DAY for 5 years.

  28. rufusx on October 12, 2013 at 8:43 am said:

    Talk about “ugly table” attitudes – all of the negativity on this site toward civic improvements I think qualifies as pretty damned ugly.

    Squeezing a penny – at every turn – what a waste.

  29. rufusx on October 12, 2013 at 8:51 am said:

    Craig – as to dark bottomed pools being hard t see things in; Psychology 101 – background/object perceptibility (understood best locally in terms of “camo” effectiveness) . What are colorful objects more readily seen against – a light back ground (also highly reflective of the visible spectrum) – or a dark back ground (not at all reflective of the visible spectrum)? Hint – the highly reflective light back ground is “competing” for the attention of receptor cells in the eye with the also highly reflective object.

  30. Like I said, rufusx

    $3,643,572 = SEVEN new neighborhood parks

    rufusx on 10.12.13 at 8:43 am

    Talk about “ugly table” attitudes – all of the negativity on this site toward civic improvements I think qualifies as pretty damned ugly.

    Squeezing a penny – at every turn – what a waste.

    I’m all for neighborhood parks, rufusx!!

    And I’m betting neighborhood parks are a higher priority for voters than a $19.4m indoor pool with annual operating costs of $700,000+.

    We will have our answer in April 2014 when the people speak.

  31. rufusx on October 13, 2013 at 6:34 pm said:

    Yeah cr – I understand the propaganda tactic of making everything lump together into a singe BIG number that is almost incomprehensible to the average individual – as a way to make something seem overwhelmingly bad.

    Just sayin’ – when you take those same big huge unfathomable numbers and break them down into what an individual would actually experience them as (per person/per day) – they are practically nothing.

    But, of course – to the “side” that is opposed to the idea, that (the actual individual experience of the impact) isn’t something that is advantageous to their stance. So – you WON’T – EVER – speak about the issue in those terms (the actual individual’s daily experience).

  32. Kinda like Kelby saying Sanford only spends .03% on things like basketball stadiums. Practically nothing. What he doesn’t say is that it is millions of dollars. Thank you CR for giving us the REAL numbers.

  33. Winston on October 13, 2013 at 11:24 pm said:

    “A million here and a million there and pretty soon you are talking about real money….”

    …. to paraphrase Everette Dirksen

  34. Lewis,

    The consultant delivered his report to the public at the end of March 2013. For the past six months, I have been on this site and also out in the public quoting these numbers. Counsilman Hunsaker is a nationally know expert on aquatic facilities. There numbers are reliable.

    It is important for voter/taxpayers to understand both the capital and long-term operating costs of an indoor pool in order to be able to cast an informed vote in April 2014.

    BOTH the 78 page report from the consultant and the accompanying power point presentation are readily available on siouxfalls.org.

  35. cr You want shock value from the numbers, nothing more. If you were after an informed vote, you’d put the numbers in context vs. our debt load, impact to the City Budget, credit worthiness, and growth projections to get the answer to the real question: “Can we afford to do this?”

    and again with the “SEVEN parks” line, at $520,510 per you are talking about a couple acres each of grass with a gravel lot and porta potties. Unless you’re willing to cite 7 existing sites the City already owns that haven’t been developed?

    Speaking of experts, maybe we should listen to this one:

    “Swimming is low impact and recommended by the Arthritis Foundation. It is an outstanding activity for people of all ages. It improves cardiovascular and pulmonary function, flexibility, endurance, muscle mass and asthma symptoms. It is highly effective in rehabilitation of sport-related injuries, burns calories (up to 650 per hour), lowers cholesterol and improves mental well-being.

    Most importantly, it can help prevent one of the leading causes of accidental death of American children, drowning. Drowning is second only to motor vehicular accidents.”

    http://www.argusleader.com/article/20131013/VOICES09/310130002/Letter-Improve-Spellerberg-health-Sioux-Falls

  36. Granite Valley Park (2012)

    5 Year Project Cost: $347,130

    *The Granite Valley neighborhood waited 12 years for their park to be completed (2000-2012).

    Prairie Meadows Park (2013)

    *adjacent to Journey Elementary

    5 Year Project Cost: $237,500

    Galway Park (2013)

    5 Year Project Cost: $344,850

    Southern Vistas Park (2014-2015)

    *adjacent to Pettigrew Elementary

    5 Year Project Cost: $371,200

    Memorial Park (2013-2014)

    *adjacent to Memorial Middle School

    5 Year Project Cost: $318,000

    Judee Estates Park

    Neighbors in this SE part of SF have waited many years for their neighborhood park. Year after year, the development of this park gets pushed out to future years in the City’s Capital Improvement Plan (CIP). This would be an ideal time for residents of this area to speak out!

    **All financial numbers have been taken directly from the 2012-2016 CIP.

    Director of Parks and Recreation, Don Kearney, has been quoted many times stating the cost of a new neighborhood park is in the $350,000-$500,000 range.

    So, yes Sy, it is shocking to consider that the capital cost of an indoor pool is projected to be $19.4m with annual operating costs of over $700,000.

    According to the consultant’s report, it will cost the taxpayers $3.6m to OPERATE an indoor pool for just the first five years alone.

    That $3.6 million would provide residents with at least SEVEN new neighborhood parks.

    And, BTW, I’m not aware of any SF park that consists of a gravel parking lot with porta potties!!

  37. Maybe we could make the parking lot of Sid’s into a park? Wait, they already got city Facade money. Nevermind.

  38. And again, most if not all of those sites were extra ground from a school or the developer donated land as part of their initial deal. The cost is low because like the one they are doing at Dawley right now consist of a single wooden picnic structure, fencing and a new sign, along with some trees planted. They parking lot and playground equipment were all in place when the school went in, same with the underpass under 26th. You live and breath this stuff, does the city have seven sites ready to go yes or no?

    & take a run out to Family Park or Arrowhead some time. Both would’ve been multi-million $$ projects had the City done it on their own (ie buy the land, build the lake etc.) They both have gravel lots and porta potties.

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