While Sioux Falls has experienced enormous (business and population) growth since the Home-Rule charter came into affect, city debt has skyrocketed and working class wages have not really gone up. So is the Home-Rule charter hurting more then helping? I don’t know?
Fight away.
(Sidenote; PG, you are welcome to the discussion, trust dat, but please let’s not mention guns, Nazi’s or hookers).
Just a couple of observations. There are 135,110 jobs in this town. The 25th percentile salary of those 135,110 jobs is $10.62 an hour. $10.62 an hour in 2010 has the same buying power as $7.52 an hour in 1994 when “home rule” was started. The 50th percentile salary of those 135,110 jobs is $14.00 an hour. $14.00 an hour in 2010 has the same buying power as $9.58 an hour when “home rule” was started in 1994. YEAH…we’ve come a long way baby.
Last I heard there were 12 Sioux Falls “directors” who make more than the governor of South Dakota. Throw in Jodi and that’s 13. Throw in the mayor and that’s 14. Throw in the police and fire chiefs and that’s 16. Prolly a few other gofers who also make more. Under home rule and Munson, the publishing of city salaries was stopped for several years. Public outcry righted that ship a couple of years ago.
Thanks to the Argus and some fudgin of the numbers by Rowenhurst, a good percentage of Sioux Falls citizens believe we are operating on a surplus. Shame on the Argus and Rowenhurst.
So…do I think we are better off since home rule? If I were a member of the Sioux Falls Chamber of Commerce..YES. But I’m just Joe Sixpack. So NO F’in way.
Poly, do you have anything but your stats on jobs and wages to talk about?
Attracting better paying jobs doesn’t help Joe Sixpack out unless he’s in a position to apply for one of those jobs. We probably won’t be attracting much manufacturing work unless it’s non-union for the prevailing SF wages. What other kinds of jobs do you see that Mr. Sixpack has a chance at?
What we need to attract is corporate HQs. having a few backwater operations for the big banks is nice to some extent, but if we want to keep our smartest young people within three hours of this city, we need to actively seek this kind of growth.
Unfortunately, with our shitty airport and lack of amenities, it’s unlikely that we’ll land one anytime soon.
Poly, do you have anything but your stats on jobs and wages to talk about?
~dude
Actually, you and I have covered the gamut on a lot of topics. This thread happens to be about what l3wis brought up when he introduced this topic.
What do you think?
While Sioux Falls has experienced enormous (business and population) growth since the Home-Rule charter came into affect, city debt has skyrocketed and working class wages have not really gone up. So is the Home-Rule charter hurting more then helping?
Just staying in the ballpark of the topic l3wis started.
Unfortunately, with our shitty airport and lack of amenities, it’s unlikely that we’ll land one anytime soon.
Attracting better paying jobs doesn’t help Joe Sixpack out unless he’s in a position to apply for one of those jobs.
~dude
Are you suggesting that 67,555 jobs in this town that pay less than $14.00 an hour, or $9.58 in 1994’s dollars, are occupied by those with a lack of trying to position themselves better? That’s a pretty high number. That could fill 5 of your McArena’s to the rafters.
Are you suggesting that 67,555 jobs in this town that pay less than $14.00 an hour, or $9.58 in 1994’s dollars, are occupied by those with a lack of trying to position themselves better?
Lack of trying, or do you mean lack of training/education?
Your average call-center grunt or construction worker isn’t trained or educated enough to fill a corporate HQ job.
You can reach your hand in a hat and pull out 1000 reasons why wages are low in this town, but I think it is a bit of a stretch to draw a connection to home rule. I just don’t think that has a damn thing to do with it.
People are generally paid according to three things.
1. How hard they work.
2. How much they know.
3. To what extent they are willing to improve number one and two.
Education, ambition, intelligence, experience etc, etc can all be boiled down to one of the above. Toss in the truth that supply and demand will always drive the market (both in economic terms as well as employment) and you have a recipe that shows precisely why we have the job market we do.
Your average call-center grunt or construction worker isn’t trained or educated enough to fill a corporate HQ job.
~dude
And your average “corporate” HQ gofer couldn’t build, plumb, wire, paint an outhouse, change his own oil, or replace a flat. Your point? Just bein a numbers cruncher or pourin the boss his coffee in the mornin does not make one “smarter” or somehow better than Joe Sixpack. 😉
Toss in the truth that supply and demand will always drive the market
~costner
I have to respectfully disagree. GREED drives the market. Case in point. Gasoline prices. Reserves are at record highs and yet prices will again skyrocket next month for any number of bogus made up excuses.
There is no reason in the world anyone in this town should work part time for $10.25 an hour with no bennies fillin potholes just because supply dictates it. No costner. That’s not supply and demand. That’s GREED.
Like I said in the other thread, you force employers to pay your “living” wage and well over half of those jobs will walk, the only question is how far will they go.
The fundamental question for anyone running for office is whether or not now is the time to expand Government or is it time to pull it back a notch or two. Most of those places that choose the former over the last decade or so are the same ones at the front of the line for a Federal Bailout these days. They also tend to be the places that make the lists for least “business-friendly” environments and they are reaping the consequences of that reputation.
As for the McArena, as long as it is viewed as a reward for the the “wealthy” vs. what it really is, (an Economic generator) you won’t be getting the whole picture. When they are done correctly they pay all the taxpayers back many times over their lifespans, which equates to not having to raise other taxes to get the same revenue.
And somehow having a degree and drinking “Natural Ice†at sorority parties automatically qualifies one for a “corporate†headquarters job?.
To the hiring managers at major corporations, yes it does. Right or wrong, it’s how the world works. You can put a suit on Joe Sixpack and send him in for an interview, but if he doesn’t have a degree, the company will circular-file his resume.
And your average “corporate†HQ gofer couldn’t build, plumb, wire, paint an outhouse, change his own oil, or replace a flat. Your point?
Since when does one need to know all those things in order to do a corporate job? How well could your average high-school educated construction worker put together a complex international supply chain or write reports on ongoing operations involving hundreds of people and millions of dollars?
Just bein a numbers cruncher or pourin the boss his coffee in the mornin does not make one “smarter†or somehow better than Joe Sixpack.
No. But it makes one more qualified for the type of job this city’s economy needs to keep growing. Those retail, call-center, and construction jobs will only keep us going for so long.
And BTW, the guy/girl getting the boss his coffee and crunching numbers in a corporate HQ generally starts out making around $40k/yr if the offers flying around when I graduated college are still relevent. A far cry from your $14/hr.
There is no reason in the world anyone in this town should work part time for $10.25 an hour with no bennies fillin potholes just because supply dictates it. No costner. That’s not supply and demand. That’s GREED.
Sorry Poly, but it is in fact due to supply and demand. If nobody was willing to work for that $10.25 an hour… you can bet your ass they would be forced to pay a higher wage.
Same goes for those call center jobs you seem to hate so much. If there weren’t a line around the corner of people trying to apply to get one of them maybe the employers would feel the need to pay more, but in this city and in this economy the overabundance of supply will continue to keep wages low.
Besides – even if the market would suddenly decide to pay more all that does is offer a temporary adjustment until the surrounding inflationary adjustment makes that adjustment null. Case in point – a company decides to raise wages which in turn requires them to adjust their pricing model as to minimize impact upon profits. Their pricing enters the complex economy only to come back in the form of higher costs to customers, and in essence right back out of the pockets of those very same people who were given a wage increase.
Obviously that is an overly-simplified version, but the net result is artificial adjustments of wages outside of the supply and demand model won’t really have a net positive result in the long run. That isn’t merely greed – that is just a core principle of economics.
This probably explains why so many economists are against minimum wage requirements and how they instead prefer to let market forces decide the going rate. Yes it is easy to assume all economists are greedy bastards, but that isn’t really a fair assessment. They just understand the market better than the average person.
Scramble it any way you want costner. Bottom line is yesterdays middle class is todays working poor.
And BTW, the guy/girl getting the boss his coffee and crunching numbers in a corporate HQ generally starts out making around $40k/yr if the offers flying around when I graduated college are still relevent. A far cry from your $14/hr.
I fail to follow your logic here. Payin a street worker a wage that will keep him/her out of a soup line will cause employers to walk, just a question of how far, and payin a corporate gofer 40k to serve coffeee is OK?
Like I said, small wonder the street workers of the world have to keep bailin out your corporate world.
I fail to follow your logic here. Payin a street worker a wage that will keep him/her out of a soup line will cause employers to walk, just a question of how far, and payin a corporate gofer 40k to serve coffeee is OK?
It must be very hard to follow logic that is welded together in your own mind by the comments of two different people. Corporate gofers making $40k/yr was my own personal experience from the offers I saw while in school. People with engineering degrees started out at around $50k.
Paying a higher wage to the average working stiff, in my opinion, will eventually make their employers walk. But it really depends on the job. Call centers, manfacturing, and back office operation type jobs tend to be fairly mobile – you can build a new office, call center, or factory almost anywhere. Construction and medical jobs are a much more localized job market. You can pay the people there more, but the cost goes up dramatically as a result. When construction activity is down, though, it’s difficult to raise wages.
Like I said, small wonder the street workers of the world have to keep bailin out your corporate world.
The people I lovingly refer to as my corporate overlords have no debt, and haven’t for over 150 years. They actually made a damn good profit last year, and passed it on to their customers. Not bad for a Fortune 500 company, don’t ya think?
just who will the event center generate money for? unless people are coming in from out of town, i dont really see what money it would generate other than for the eagles or fleetwood mac. if i were to go to an “event” there, i would probably make a sandwich at home, and then go home and sleep in my own bed. only if people are coming from out of town, might it benefit restraunt owners, and hotel keepers. that way, they can hire someone at minimum wage to flip the burgers and clean the rooms. the only ones who stand to really benefit are said restraunt owners and inn keepers.
The people I lovingly refer to as my corporate overlords have no debt, and haven’t for over 150 years. They actually made a damn good profit last year, and passed it on to their customers. Not bad for a Fortune 500 company, don’t ya think?
And would whatever it is you are selling have made a damn good profit last year had Joe Sixpack not bailed out the banks for billions of dollars with their hard earned tax dollars? Just a question of time before the goose (banks) that lays the golden egg lines up at the trough again.
And would whatever it is you are selling have made a damn good profit last year had Joe Sixpack not bailed out the banks for billions of dollars with their hard earned tax dollars?
Probably more. People would be looking for stability even more than they are now.
Sorry dude. Ain’t buyin it. The financials were flatfooted and reeling before the banks lined up at the corporate welfare trough. Any “stability” you might be talking about is a direct result of the near trillion dollar bailout. Before the bailout and during a time when millions of Americans lost their savings, most pulled out. Some are venturing back in, but like I said, it’s just a question of time before the whole nightmare scenario is played all over again.
poly: Scramble it any way you want costner. Bottom line is yesterdays middle class is todays working poor.
Do you really believe that? I guess I just don’t see it – the standard of living is higher now than it was 30, 40, or 50 years ago, so maybe it is our measuring stick which is out of line. I can speak from experience that my middle class experience growing up is far different from what we consider middle class now days.
50 years ago people were happy with one television – 30 years ago the second TV was likely black and white, and you had to get up off the couch to change the “dial”. I think we got a whopping 4 channels.
We had no iPods, no computers, no cell phones and somehow our mothers figured out how to cook every dang piece of that cow… even the liver – because it was cheap. If Mom didn’t work outside the house, it was possibly the family had one car. If she did work the family might have two cars, but rarely did the kids each have their own unless they also lived on a golf course and had a pool in the backyard (read: upper middle class).
We all shared one ‘real’ bathroom with the other one being in the basement and not at all suitable for company. We likely shared bedrooms with same-sex siblings and didn’t even think twice about sleeping in bunk beds or twin beds. Our houses were considered large if they were over 2000 square feet… and that included the basement. Speaking of that basement – Dad probably finished it himself with some really nice paneling and the old carpet that used to be upstairs before it was replaced. One stall on the garage was sufficient – two was rare.
For entertainment we didn’t have a megaplex or a go-cart track and we didn’t expect a vacation to a distant state or a trip to Disneyworld. A car trip a couple hours away where we could camp at a state park was considered a treat for summer vacation. A weekend trip to a local lake was all we ever asked for.
We wore the clothes bought for us by our parents and the only name brand I ever recall seeing was a seed company or brand of herbicide because my Dad could get those for free.
Fast forward to present day and I think we can all agree none of this holds true for today’s “middle class”. We expect more – a flat panel TV in every room, a washer and dryer set that cost more than a nice used car. A triple stall garage and at least two or three nice cars to fill it up.
Middle class kids shop at Holister and Abercrombie where a pair of jeans might cost $90 and they are carrying around a $200 blackberry (with a $60 a month plan) on top of that $350 iPod touch in their pocket.
The house is likely approaching 3000 or more square feet in size and they order pizza or eat out almost as many nights as they eat in. Every kid has their own computer and soda and Gatorade has replaced tap water as the drink of choice.
So can you really say this is all due to wages… or does the dollar just not go as far when you are expected to keep up a lifestyle which was unheard of 30, 40, or 50 years ago?
Get back to the basics and I think most families would find they can do just fine. Yes there will always be those people below average – that is how averages work, and there will always be those that struggle financially through no fault of their own, but I would argue the lifestyle of today simply costs more, and in many cases the middle class is just trying to keep up with the jones… thus putting themself into that ‘working poor’ category due to their own actions.
“just who will the event center generate money for?”
Like I said, it will benefit all of us, regardless of whether or not you set foot in the place.
Both Fargo & Sioux City have paid off their Events Centers several years early, both under a decade. When a City does so, the revenue that had gone to pay P&I can be used elsewhere, so that means less pressure to raise tax revenues to keep a budget balanced.
I liked your post costner. Brought back a lot of memories of how “our” generation grew up. A lot of what you say is true with one exception. There are a 135,000 plus jobs in SF. The very middle of those jobs pays $14.00 an hour. So, I’ll call that the Sioux Falls middle class. No way does that kind of money afford the middle class lifestyle you speak of. Even with two incomes.
“The financials were flatfooted and reeling before the banks lined up at the corporate welfare trough.”
You do know that most big banks, like Wells Fargo, had not needed nor wanted TARP funds. They were forced to take them since the restrictions put on those who needed them were bad enough that other healthy banks would’ve easily overtook & consumed them. Also, at last count I believe about 90% or so of all TARP money that went out was paid back, with interest no less.
So if Joe Sixpack is still pissed about TARP, you may want to let him know the program was wildly successfull. If JSP is a taxpayer, you may also want to let him know his money has been paid back and then some.
JSP would be better served to channel his anger toward Geithner & Obama, who sound like they’d like to turn TARP into another vehicle for politcal paybacks. Tell them to just put the money back and pay down some of the Debt we’ve driven through the roof in the last year.
Well I may not disagree with that point, but rarely has “middle class” actually been the exactly middle of the income. Middle class is really just the range between poor and wealthy…but it seems everyone has their definition of what it means to be “poor” and everyone has their own definition of what it means to be “wealthy”.
I guess it is just a matter of if a person is looking up or down to form their opinion. That said, $14.00 an hour is approximately $29k a year if the person never gets a single hour of overtime. So is that a lot of money? No…and it would be damn near impossible to raise a family on that income which is why we have so many double income families.
It can be done, but nobody ever said it would be easy. Then again, aside from some entry level teachers I don’t know many college educated individuals making $14 an hour or equivalent, so it comes back to that “what you know” argument.
Tyson was built in 2003 with the assistance of a state program called Vision Iowa. They gave Sioux City 20 million and Tyson forked out several more million for naming rights. Sioux City contributed money as did Woodbury County WITHOUT any kind of tax increase. They also qualified for historic tax credits by attaching the new center to the old Auditorium since it is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. The city leases the building from a non-profit called Missouri River Historical Development since the city itself couldn’t apply for the tax credits. So, you are right. Sioux City’s “Event” center is paid for. With little overhead, how are we going to compete with SC for the damn few decent “events” that do come along?
There are a lot of college educated people out there trying to make ends meet AND pay off school loans working construction. Just because someone has a degree guarantees nothing. Especially in todays job market.
You’re right… it does take more than a degree. That is even more true today when you have for profit so-called ‘accredited’ diploma mills out there that will toss a degree at anyone willing to shell out the cost of tuition (I’m looking at you Colorado Tech).
That little piece of paper isn’t nearly as valuable as it once was, but it is also true that you don’t need a degree to get a good paying job either. It goes both ways, but to some degree it is still what you know. The only difference is without that piece of paper you need to prove what you know in other ways. It might mean working extra hard to prove yourself or simply putting in more time.
I’m impressed with the focused criticism. Citizens are threatened by protection money code enforcers. To live here, you must accept tyrannical dictatorship and envy constitutional democracy afforded the rest of the nation. Business realizes this is not a good environment if you have to pay off politicians and employees are constantly harrassed. What keeps me angry is the city uses Home Rule-Corrupt Mayor to exclude itself from SD civil procedures and the US Constitution. Citizens have no right to appeal, no right to present evidence, no timely due process, and no right to call witnesses. City kangaroo hearings are not properly documented or recorded. Conveniently, they never happened when they lose. City employees can enter your property at will and take possessions without a court order. The courts can’t or won’t help. No mayor will repeal Home Rule while he can use it to make himself rich. One way to restore government our forefathers geniusly engineered and the world envys is a class action into state court with another appeal into supreme court. The city’s Home Rule Charter should be revoked. Another is citizen protests that will certainly lead to violence and federal intervention.
I’m going to expand my business in North Sioux City because I must be closer to an airport with reasonable airfares and better schedules (Omaha). I will remain a SD residence but leave Sioux Fell.
Eventually, after 4 years and $40,000, I’ll get a court decision. I’ll immediately appeal to state court and exhaust another $100,000. Attorney’s and legal staff have worked pro bono. They may continue. However, state court will cost more and last longer. I must move outside of city limits to prevent the city from using Home Rule for vendettas.
Let it be known:
This case will serve as reference for future actions; this mayor, council, and city attorney’s office are enemies of this nation; and my testimony will always be uncompensated versus city constitutional violations.
Once business discovers Sioux Falls is an undemocratic vacuum, they shy away. North Sioux City (still SD tax benefit) is perfect because it’s a center for energy and new technology. Gateway found it, Hyperion uses it. It’s small, uncorrupted, and receptive. Minnesota has built an Interstate Highway nearly to Iowa. Iowa has continued it toward Sioux City emptying more directly into I-29. There’s existing rail right-of-way more direct through Sioux City between Minneapolis and Omaha. High speed passenger trains are the transportation solution. Sioux Falls was a valuable Interstates intersection but will soon become an endlink spur once the stockyards, banks, and most medical have left.
Besides (hold it … hold it … hold it), Sioux City has the events center Sioux Falls should have built first. Politicians used a corrupt bid-rigging scheme to steal and squander revenue that should have gone toward an events center and tax incentives to attract business.
I’ll always have Sioux Falls as my voters and IRS address. It will be an RV address I can use to avoid other states income tax and vehicle registrations. Also, it will be the address as plaintiff in ongoing city lawsuits.
“Leave before you lose home equity, tap for cross border value, pay no taxes or fees, but keep your little toe in the door to taunt city politicians.” Plaintiff Guy
Just a couple of observations. There are 135,110 jobs in this town. The 25th percentile salary of those 135,110 jobs is $10.62 an hour. $10.62 an hour in 2010 has the same buying power as $7.52 an hour in 1994 when “home rule” was started. The 50th percentile salary of those 135,110 jobs is $14.00 an hour. $14.00 an hour in 2010 has the same buying power as $9.58 an hour when “home rule” was started in 1994. YEAH…we’ve come a long way baby.
Last I heard there were 12 Sioux Falls “directors” who make more than the governor of South Dakota. Throw in Jodi and that’s 13. Throw in the mayor and that’s 14. Throw in the police and fire chiefs and that’s 16. Prolly a few other gofers who also make more. Under home rule and Munson, the publishing of city salaries was stopped for several years. Public outcry righted that ship a couple of years ago.
Thanks to the Argus and some fudgin of the numbers by Rowenhurst, a good percentage of Sioux Falls citizens believe we are operating on a surplus. Shame on the Argus and Rowenhurst.
So…do I think we are better off since home rule? If I were a member of the Sioux Falls Chamber of Commerce..YES. But I’m just Joe Sixpack. So NO F’in way.
Poly, do you have anything but your stats on jobs and wages to talk about?
Attracting better paying jobs doesn’t help Joe Sixpack out unless he’s in a position to apply for one of those jobs. We probably won’t be attracting much manufacturing work unless it’s non-union for the prevailing SF wages. What other kinds of jobs do you see that Mr. Sixpack has a chance at?
What we need to attract is corporate HQs. having a few backwater operations for the big banks is nice to some extent, but if we want to keep our smartest young people within three hours of this city, we need to actively seek this kind of growth.
Unfortunately, with our shitty airport and lack of amenities, it’s unlikely that we’ll land one anytime soon.
Poly, do you have anything but your stats on jobs and wages to talk about?
~dude
Actually, you and I have covered the gamut on a lot of topics. This thread happens to be about what l3wis brought up when he introduced this topic.
What do you think?
While Sioux Falls has experienced enormous (business and population) growth since the Home-Rule charter came into affect, city debt has skyrocketed and working class wages have not really gone up. So is the Home-Rule charter hurting more then helping?
Just staying in the ballpark of the topic l3wis started.
Unfortunately, with our shitty airport and lack of amenities, it’s unlikely that we’ll land one anytime soon.
~dude
That’s dudespeak for a 15,000 seat McArena.
That’s dudespeak for a 15,000 seat McArena.
Try 10,000 seats in the right location, among other things.
Attracting better paying jobs doesn’t help Joe Sixpack out unless he’s in a position to apply for one of those jobs.
~dude
Are you suggesting that 67,555 jobs in this town that pay less than $14.00 an hour, or $9.58 in 1994’s dollars, are occupied by those with a lack of trying to position themselves better? That’s a pretty high number. That could fill 5 of your McArena’s to the rafters.
Are you suggesting that 67,555 jobs in this town that pay less than $14.00 an hour, or $9.58 in 1994’s dollars, are occupied by those with a lack of trying to position themselves better?
Lack of trying, or do you mean lack of training/education?
Your average call-center grunt or construction worker isn’t trained or educated enough to fill a corporate HQ job.
Your average call-center grunt or construction worker isn’t trained or educated enough to fill a corporate HQ job.
And somehow having a degree and drinking “Natural Ice” at sorority parties automatically qualifies one for a “corporate” headquarters job?.
Small f’in wonder Joe Sixpack is bailing “corporate” America out every two years with tax payer dollars. 😉
You can reach your hand in a hat and pull out 1000 reasons why wages are low in this town, but I think it is a bit of a stretch to draw a connection to home rule. I just don’t think that has a damn thing to do with it.
People are generally paid according to three things.
1. How hard they work.
2. How much they know.
3. To what extent they are willing to improve number one and two.
Education, ambition, intelligence, experience etc, etc can all be boiled down to one of the above. Toss in the truth that supply and demand will always drive the market (both in economic terms as well as employment) and you have a recipe that shows precisely why we have the job market we do.
Your average call-center grunt or construction worker isn’t trained or educated enough to fill a corporate HQ job.
~dude
And your average “corporate” HQ gofer couldn’t build, plumb, wire, paint an outhouse, change his own oil, or replace a flat. Your point? Just bein a numbers cruncher or pourin the boss his coffee in the mornin does not make one “smarter” or somehow better than Joe Sixpack. 😉
Toss in the truth that supply and demand will always drive the market
~costner
I have to respectfully disagree. GREED drives the market. Case in point. Gasoline prices. Reserves are at record highs and yet prices will again skyrocket next month for any number of bogus made up excuses.
There is no reason in the world anyone in this town should work part time for $10.25 an hour with no bennies fillin potholes just because supply dictates it. No costner. That’s not supply and demand. That’s GREED.
Like I said in the other thread, you force employers to pay your “living” wage and well over half of those jobs will walk, the only question is how far will they go.
The fundamental question for anyone running for office is whether or not now is the time to expand Government or is it time to pull it back a notch or two. Most of those places that choose the former over the last decade or so are the same ones at the front of the line for a Federal Bailout these days. They also tend to be the places that make the lists for least “business-friendly” environments and they are reaping the consequences of that reputation.
As for the McArena, as long as it is viewed as a reward for the the “wealthy” vs. what it really is, (an Economic generator) you won’t be getting the whole picture. When they are done correctly they pay all the taxpayers back many times over their lifespans, which equates to not having to raise other taxes to get the same revenue.
And somehow having a degree and drinking “Natural Ice†at sorority parties automatically qualifies one for a “corporate†headquarters job?.
To the hiring managers at major corporations, yes it does. Right or wrong, it’s how the world works. You can put a suit on Joe Sixpack and send him in for an interview, but if he doesn’t have a degree, the company will circular-file his resume.
And your average “corporate†HQ gofer couldn’t build, plumb, wire, paint an outhouse, change his own oil, or replace a flat. Your point?
Since when does one need to know all those things in order to do a corporate job? How well could your average high-school educated construction worker put together a complex international supply chain or write reports on ongoing operations involving hundreds of people and millions of dollars?
Just bein a numbers cruncher or pourin the boss his coffee in the mornin does not make one “smarter†or somehow better than Joe Sixpack.
No. But it makes one more qualified for the type of job this city’s economy needs to keep growing. Those retail, call-center, and construction jobs will only keep us going for so long.
And BTW, the guy/girl getting the boss his coffee and crunching numbers in a corporate HQ generally starts out making around $40k/yr if the offers flying around when I graduated college are still relevent. A far cry from your $14/hr.
There is no reason in the world anyone in this town should work part time for $10.25 an hour with no bennies fillin potholes just because supply dictates it. No costner. That’s not supply and demand. That’s GREED.
Sorry Poly, but it is in fact due to supply and demand. If nobody was willing to work for that $10.25 an hour… you can bet your ass they would be forced to pay a higher wage.
Same goes for those call center jobs you seem to hate so much. If there weren’t a line around the corner of people trying to apply to get one of them maybe the employers would feel the need to pay more, but in this city and in this economy the overabundance of supply will continue to keep wages low.
Besides – even if the market would suddenly decide to pay more all that does is offer a temporary adjustment until the surrounding inflationary adjustment makes that adjustment null. Case in point – a company decides to raise wages which in turn requires them to adjust their pricing model as to minimize impact upon profits. Their pricing enters the complex economy only to come back in the form of higher costs to customers, and in essence right back out of the pockets of those very same people who were given a wage increase.
Obviously that is an overly-simplified version, but the net result is artificial adjustments of wages outside of the supply and demand model won’t really have a net positive result in the long run. That isn’t merely greed – that is just a core principle of economics.
This probably explains why so many economists are against minimum wage requirements and how they instead prefer to let market forces decide the going rate. Yes it is easy to assume all economists are greedy bastards, but that isn’t really a fair assessment. They just understand the market better than the average person.
Scramble it any way you want costner. Bottom line is yesterdays middle class is todays working poor.
And BTW, the guy/girl getting the boss his coffee and crunching numbers in a corporate HQ generally starts out making around $40k/yr if the offers flying around when I graduated college are still relevent. A far cry from your $14/hr.
I fail to follow your logic here. Payin a street worker a wage that will keep him/her out of a soup line will cause employers to walk, just a question of how far, and payin a corporate gofer 40k to serve coffeee is OK?
Like I said, small wonder the street workers of the world have to keep bailin out your corporate world.
I fail to follow your logic here. Payin a street worker a wage that will keep him/her out of a soup line will cause employers to walk, just a question of how far, and payin a corporate gofer 40k to serve coffeee is OK?
It must be very hard to follow logic that is welded together in your own mind by the comments of two different people. Corporate gofers making $40k/yr was my own personal experience from the offers I saw while in school. People with engineering degrees started out at around $50k.
Paying a higher wage to the average working stiff, in my opinion, will eventually make their employers walk. But it really depends on the job. Call centers, manfacturing, and back office operation type jobs tend to be fairly mobile – you can build a new office, call center, or factory almost anywhere. Construction and medical jobs are a much more localized job market. You can pay the people there more, but the cost goes up dramatically as a result. When construction activity is down, though, it’s difficult to raise wages.
Like I said, small wonder the street workers of the world have to keep bailin out your corporate world.
The people I lovingly refer to as my corporate overlords have no debt, and haven’t for over 150 years. They actually made a damn good profit last year, and passed it on to their customers. Not bad for a Fortune 500 company, don’t ya think?
just who will the event center generate money for? unless people are coming in from out of town, i dont really see what money it would generate other than for the eagles or fleetwood mac. if i were to go to an “event” there, i would probably make a sandwich at home, and then go home and sleep in my own bed. only if people are coming from out of town, might it benefit restraunt owners, and hotel keepers. that way, they can hire someone at minimum wage to flip the burgers and clean the rooms. the only ones who stand to really benefit are said restraunt owners and inn keepers.
the only ones who stand to really benefit are said restraunt owners and inn keepers.
Who, as we all know, stash all their money in huge vaults like Scrooge McDuck and swim in it twice daily to get high from the cocaine residue.
The people I lovingly refer to as my corporate overlords have no debt, and haven’t for over 150 years. They actually made a damn good profit last year, and passed it on to their customers. Not bad for a Fortune 500 company, don’t ya think?
And would whatever it is you are selling have made a damn good profit last year had Joe Sixpack not bailed out the banks for billions of dollars with their hard earned tax dollars? Just a question of time before the goose (banks) that lays the golden egg lines up at the trough again.
And would whatever it is you are selling have made a damn good profit last year had Joe Sixpack not bailed out the banks for billions of dollars with their hard earned tax dollars?
Probably more. People would be looking for stability even more than they are now.
Probably more.
Sorry dude. Ain’t buyin it. The financials were flatfooted and reeling before the banks lined up at the corporate welfare trough. Any “stability” you might be talking about is a direct result of the near trillion dollar bailout. Before the bailout and during a time when millions of Americans lost their savings, most pulled out. Some are venturing back in, but like I said, it’s just a question of time before the whole nightmare scenario is played all over again.
poly: Scramble it any way you want costner. Bottom line is yesterdays middle class is todays working poor.
Do you really believe that? I guess I just don’t see it – the standard of living is higher now than it was 30, 40, or 50 years ago, so maybe it is our measuring stick which is out of line. I can speak from experience that my middle class experience growing up is far different from what we consider middle class now days.
50 years ago people were happy with one television – 30 years ago the second TV was likely black and white, and you had to get up off the couch to change the “dial”. I think we got a whopping 4 channels.
We had no iPods, no computers, no cell phones and somehow our mothers figured out how to cook every dang piece of that cow… even the liver – because it was cheap. If Mom didn’t work outside the house, it was possibly the family had one car. If she did work the family might have two cars, but rarely did the kids each have their own unless they also lived on a golf course and had a pool in the backyard (read: upper middle class).
We all shared one ‘real’ bathroom with the other one being in the basement and not at all suitable for company. We likely shared bedrooms with same-sex siblings and didn’t even think twice about sleeping in bunk beds or twin beds. Our houses were considered large if they were over 2000 square feet… and that included the basement. Speaking of that basement – Dad probably finished it himself with some really nice paneling and the old carpet that used to be upstairs before it was replaced. One stall on the garage was sufficient – two was rare.
For entertainment we didn’t have a megaplex or a go-cart track and we didn’t expect a vacation to a distant state or a trip to Disneyworld. A car trip a couple hours away where we could camp at a state park was considered a treat for summer vacation. A weekend trip to a local lake was all we ever asked for.
We wore the clothes bought for us by our parents and the only name brand I ever recall seeing was a seed company or brand of herbicide because my Dad could get those for free.
Fast forward to present day and I think we can all agree none of this holds true for today’s “middle class”. We expect more – a flat panel TV in every room, a washer and dryer set that cost more than a nice used car. A triple stall garage and at least two or three nice cars to fill it up.
Middle class kids shop at Holister and Abercrombie where a pair of jeans might cost $90 and they are carrying around a $200 blackberry (with a $60 a month plan) on top of that $350 iPod touch in their pocket.
The house is likely approaching 3000 or more square feet in size and they order pizza or eat out almost as many nights as they eat in. Every kid has their own computer and soda and Gatorade has replaced tap water as the drink of choice.
So can you really say this is all due to wages… or does the dollar just not go as far when you are expected to keep up a lifestyle which was unheard of 30, 40, or 50 years ago?
Get back to the basics and I think most families would find they can do just fine. Yes there will always be those people below average – that is how averages work, and there will always be those that struggle financially through no fault of their own, but I would argue the lifestyle of today simply costs more, and in many cases the middle class is just trying to keep up with the jones… thus putting themself into that ‘working poor’ category due to their own actions.
scott:
“just who will the event center generate money for?”
Like I said, it will benefit all of us, regardless of whether or not you set foot in the place.
Both Fargo & Sioux City have paid off their Events Centers several years early, both under a decade. When a City does so, the revenue that had gone to pay P&I can be used elsewhere, so that means less pressure to raise tax revenues to keep a budget balanced.
I liked your post costner. Brought back a lot of memories of how “our” generation grew up. A lot of what you say is true with one exception. There are a 135,000 plus jobs in SF. The very middle of those jobs pays $14.00 an hour. So, I’ll call that the Sioux Falls middle class. No way does that kind of money afford the middle class lifestyle you speak of. Even with two incomes.
Poly:
“The financials were flatfooted and reeling before the banks lined up at the corporate welfare trough.”
You do know that most big banks, like Wells Fargo, had not needed nor wanted TARP funds. They were forced to take them since the restrictions put on those who needed them were bad enough that other healthy banks would’ve easily overtook & consumed them. Also, at last count I believe about 90% or so of all TARP money that went out was paid back, with interest no less.
So if Joe Sixpack is still pissed about TARP, you may want to let him know the program was wildly successfull. If JSP is a taxpayer, you may also want to let him know his money has been paid back and then some.
JSP would be better served to channel his anger toward Geithner & Obama, who sound like they’d like to turn TARP into another vehicle for politcal paybacks. Tell them to just put the money back and pay down some of the Debt we’ve driven through the roof in the last year.
I agree with Poly, that was a great post, Costner.
Well I may not disagree with that point, but rarely has “middle class” actually been the exactly middle of the income. Middle class is really just the range between poor and wealthy…but it seems everyone has their definition of what it means to be “poor” and everyone has their own definition of what it means to be “wealthy”.
I guess it is just a matter of if a person is looking up or down to form their opinion. That said, $14.00 an hour is approximately $29k a year if the person never gets a single hour of overtime. So is that a lot of money? No…and it would be damn near impossible to raise a family on that income which is why we have so many double income families.
It can be done, but nobody ever said it would be easy. Then again, aside from some entry level teachers I don’t know many college educated individuals making $14 an hour or equivalent, so it comes back to that “what you know” argument.
Sy:
Tyson was built in 2003 with the assistance of a state program called Vision Iowa. They gave Sioux City 20 million and Tyson forked out several more million for naming rights. Sioux City contributed money as did Woodbury County WITHOUT any kind of tax increase. They also qualified for historic tax credits by attaching the new center to the old Auditorium since it is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. The city leases the building from a non-profit called Missouri River Historical Development since the city itself couldn’t apply for the tax credits. So, you are right. Sioux City’s “Event” center is paid for. With little overhead, how are we going to compete with SC for the damn few decent “events” that do come along?
Costner:
There are a lot of college educated people out there trying to make ends meet AND pay off school loans working construction. Just because someone has a degree guarantees nothing. Especially in todays job market.
You’re right… it does take more than a degree. That is even more true today when you have for profit so-called ‘accredited’ diploma mills out there that will toss a degree at anyone willing to shell out the cost of tuition (I’m looking at you Colorado Tech).
That little piece of paper isn’t nearly as valuable as it once was, but it is also true that you don’t need a degree to get a good paying job either. It goes both ways, but to some degree it is still what you know. The only difference is without that piece of paper you need to prove what you know in other ways. It might mean working extra hard to prove yourself or simply putting in more time.
No matter what’s built the Eagles or Fleetwood Mac’s 50th reunion tour will still not hit our fine city.
I’m impressed with the focused criticism. Citizens are threatened by protection money code enforcers. To live here, you must accept tyrannical dictatorship and envy constitutional democracy afforded the rest of the nation. Business realizes this is not a good environment if you have to pay off politicians and employees are constantly harrassed. What keeps me angry is the city uses Home Rule-Corrupt Mayor to exclude itself from SD civil procedures and the US Constitution. Citizens have no right to appeal, no right to present evidence, no timely due process, and no right to call witnesses. City kangaroo hearings are not properly documented or recorded. Conveniently, they never happened when they lose. City employees can enter your property at will and take possessions without a court order. The courts can’t or won’t help. No mayor will repeal Home Rule while he can use it to make himself rich. One way to restore government our forefathers geniusly engineered and the world envys is a class action into state court with another appeal into supreme court. The city’s Home Rule Charter should be revoked. Another is citizen protests that will certainly lead to violence and federal intervention.
I’m going to expand my business in North Sioux City because I must be closer to an airport with reasonable airfares and better schedules (Omaha). I will remain a SD residence but leave Sioux Fell.
Eventually, after 4 years and $40,000, I’ll get a court decision. I’ll immediately appeal to state court and exhaust another $100,000. Attorney’s and legal staff have worked pro bono. They may continue. However, state court will cost more and last longer. I must move outside of city limits to prevent the city from using Home Rule for vendettas.
Let it be known:
This case will serve as reference for future actions; this mayor, council, and city attorney’s office are enemies of this nation; and my testimony will always be uncompensated versus city constitutional violations.
Was that tame enough?
“No matter what’s built the Eagles or Fleetwood Mac’s 50th reunion tour will still not hit our fine city.”
Dammit!
BTW, Guys, this thread is about the economic impact of the Home Rule Charter. Remember?
Once business discovers Sioux Falls is an undemocratic vacuum, they shy away. North Sioux City (still SD tax benefit) is perfect because it’s a center for energy and new technology. Gateway found it, Hyperion uses it. It’s small, uncorrupted, and receptive. Minnesota has built an Interstate Highway nearly to Iowa. Iowa has continued it toward Sioux City emptying more directly into I-29. There’s existing rail right-of-way more direct through Sioux City between Minneapolis and Omaha. High speed passenger trains are the transportation solution. Sioux Falls was a valuable Interstates intersection but will soon become an endlink spur once the stockyards, banks, and most medical have left.
Besides (hold it … hold it … hold it), Sioux City has the events center Sioux Falls should have built first. Politicians used a corrupt bid-rigging scheme to steal and squander revenue that should have gone toward an events center and tax incentives to attract business.
I’ll always have Sioux Falls as my voters and IRS address. It will be an RV address I can use to avoid other states income tax and vehicle registrations. Also, it will be the address as plaintiff in ongoing city lawsuits.
“Leave before you lose home equity, tap for cross border value, pay no taxes or fees, but keep your little toe in the door to taunt city politicians.” Plaintiff Guy
During prosperous times we needed patriotic political leaders who sought to give back as architects. We got greedy mobsters.