Sorry, Hildy, you weren’t invited to this rodeo
Here we go again, wasting a half-hour of our time on the Events Center debate. And surprise, surprise, Stormland doesn’t have any opposing views, only Mike and Jim’s view, and on top of that, Angela allows Mike to speak for the dissenting council members, without even mentioning their names. Huether also requested that the DT proponents not be allowed on the show, and Stormland caved to Mike’s demands. Lazy and irresponsible journalism indeed.
Here are some things that came out of the interview;
2004-2005 Task Force Spent $250,000
Last Task Force Spent $175,000
Huether wants to spend $1 million. And we still don’t have it on the ballot. Angela points out that it could fail on the ballot after the money is spent, and Mike goes into his normal Mr. Positive rant.
Jim claims the DT site would not work because of lack of parking and the railroad with no mention of the new CNA Surety parking ramp. Mike also has a loss of words when asked why he is not letting the DT proponents into the discussion. My question is why didn’t Stormland let them into the discussion? So now the mayor determines content on your TV station. Unfckbelvble. Mike knows Hildebrand is smart, that is why he hired him to run his campaign. He also knows Steve would have handed Jim and Mike their asses on a platter when they start crying about the DT location.
Mike says the ‘hottest topic’ when it comes to the EC is how to pay for it. Well, no shit Sherlock. Then why won’t you let us vote on that funding source.
I have said all along we could save a lot of money by making this very simple. There should be a three-question ballot;
1. Do you want the city to build a New Events Center? Yes or No.
If you voted ‘Yes’ please vote on the following;
2. Do you prefer (a) The Arena Site (b) Downtown Site (c) Neither
3. What funding source would you like to see (based on a $150 – 200 million budget);
(a) Bonding entire project (b) Sales tax increase (c) a combination of bonding, private money and other revenue sources.
Actually, the Item 2 is all you need for a ballot question. If one goes over 50%, you’re done. If not, you take the top 2 and vote on the final outcome.
Costs & payback will be different at each site, so you need that info before you can really make an informed call.
Interesting tidbit: Don Jorgenson is a member of Hilde’s FB group.
Aren’t there different funding sources for both sites? The Arena site would have to use bonds, sales tax, other payments but if a Downtown site was chosen, then wouldn’t there be other funding options only available for the Downtown site like a T.I.F.?
My input on a ballot would end after question 1. Like Scott Hudson, I wonder if we need one at all, and for many of the same reasons as Scott has pointed out in the past.
As for parking downtown? I gotta agree with Jim. Present parking just is NOT enough. The Walker Parking Study was done shortly after the task force recommended downtown. Walker based future DT parking needs on two things. Phillips To The Falls, and an Events Center. PTTF is so far a bust. The DT Events Center? Either or both will require much needed parking as advised by Walker. Three levels added on to the current ramp west of the library. 159 spots at $20,000 a spot. An eight level ramp just north of the library. 544 spots at $18,843 per net space gained. Just a cool $8,743,000. A five level 878 spot ramp just north of Wells Fargo on 8th Street. This ramp will be needed to replace the soon to be torn down and dangerous river ramp. Just $9,242,000 for that one. There are four other ramps in the works I could tell you about, but for now, just suffice it to say they will cost about another $30,000,000.
What will it cost us to pay $60,000,000 worth of parking spots off? Well, Walker suggests, at an 85% occupancy rate, these spots AND the other downtown ramps will have to charge about $180 a month to lease out. We all know there is no way in hell there will EVER be a 85% occupany rate on these parking spots, plus NO ONE is going to pay TRIPLE what they pay now to lease a parking spot downtown.
This whole concept is just a giant clusterfuck no one wants to talk about because if they did, it would most certainly be a deal killer on a DT site. They’ll just wait til AFTER the DT site has been approved and say, “OH BY THE WAY”.
I can’t even begin to state my disgust with Stormland, Mayor Hubris, and anybody else that participated in this farce. I hear all the time that I’m too mean to those poor folk at KELO, but this is a perfect example of why they need to be mocked at every turn.
I agree Poly – I’ve said the same about DT parking for a long, long time. The parking study performed in the past not only counted the river ramp (which we know is scheduled for demo), but also EVERY SINGLE PARKING SPACE DOWNTOWN including every single street space, private parking lots, and even private ramps.
So yea when they say we have sufficent parking it sounds great – until you remember that people actually work and live downtown. I sincerely doubt people who live to the East of the proposed location are going to give up their parking spaces on the street every time Bon Jovi comes to town, and I can promise you the Country Inn & Suites and Raven aren’t going to allow concert goes to park in their lots since it would mean employees and customers would be out of luck.
I also remember that parking study stating people would need to walk up to 12 blocks for adequate parking even with the flawed methodology indicated above. Great – I can just see someone parking at the friggin’ Cathedral to attend a Sugarland Concert. Get real.
Downtown may have a lot of positives over the Arena site, but parking isn’t one of them. Ramps are prohibitively expensive and there is no room for surface lots unless we want to raze entire blocks of residential property farther East.
I’m still of the mindset if you put this thing to a public vote it would go down in flames. Huge flames powered by a mixture of gasoline and napalm.
Oh but hey – money doesn’t matter… I just want to have a better view for Stampede Games.
No, sorry. I don’t think you or any anti-downtown people realize that we would build a Downtown Events Center with new/more parking. We are stating that there is already existing parking spread out across the Downtown area, however there is in the Downtown plan a potential almost 1,600 Parking Spots that would be added that would be cheap, just surface parking along with the thousands that are already Downtown. If I’m not mistaken, that would lead up to about 6,000-7,000+ Parking Spots Downtown. Plus, if we push for citizens and other visitors to utilize the Trolley, Sioux Area Metro, and other transportation options like bike trail, walking, etc. just like other cities do, we won’t have to deal with a major parking issue even though there is not a major parking issue. How do you think we are going to build an EC out at the CC? By GETTING RID of parking. Building it Downtown wouldn’t require tearing out any parking (maybe just some spots at the current Cherapa Place area but that will easily be replaced).
Costner on 09.20.10 at 2:55 pm
I agree Poly
Damn. I’m dumbfounded. We ain’t sposed to agree on anything.
Bartender….another round.
Well from time to time even great minds can come to the same incorrect conclusion, maybe another round will help you out.
Look at InTrust in Wichita, KS. 15K seat, just opened up. They claim they have all of 4K spots within 4 blocks of it, and about 1200 are operated by the City, at a profit BTW. The other 3800 spots get what they get, so why wouldn’t that work in Sioux Falls? The answer is it will. Until you can show a real world example as to the contrary, you can go ahead and round file that $60 million fantasy.
I think KELO should have invited someone from the downtown group to present that point of view. By agreeing to the mayor’s condition that he would only appear if the downtown representative is now t allowed is very unfair. I would like KELO to present both sides so I can make up my own mind, instead of the mayor and KELO working together to present only the mayor’s position.
CC Flyer, neither the trolley or SAM operates the hours that people would need for events. The trolley has limited routes, and I don’t know where out of towners would want to park to catch one of SAM’s busses, if they ran late in the evening or on Sundays or holidays.
…you can go ahead and round file that $60 million fantasy.
~Sy
Fantasy Sy? I hardly think so. The Walker Parking Study was conducted by experts in that field. The fact that the results did not cotton with the DT folks is your problem, not mine. Sure, we have parking spots, most more than 2400 feet from the proposed site, and most of them requiring ALL of the present DT people who might occupy them spots to completely vacate while you are entertained at an “event”.
Have you read that parking study yet Sy? We should provide at least LOS B for visitors for our climate range. Would we? Didn’t think so.
To evaluate parking and the impact of the walking distance, Walker developed a Level of Service (“LOSâ€) rating system for evaluating appropriate walking distances based on specific criteria. The LOS is
ranked from “A†to “D†as follows:
• LOS “A†is considered the best or ideal
• LOS “B†is good
• LOS “C†is average
• LOS “D†is below average but minimally acceptable.
A break down of the LOS conditions is provided in Table 6.
Table 6: Level of Service Conditions
Level of Service Conditions A B C D
Climate Controlled 1,000 ft 2,400 ft 3,800 ft 5,200 ft
Outdoor/Covered 500 1,000 1,500 2,000
Outdoor/Uncovered 400 800 1,200 1,600
Through Surface Lot 350 700 1,050 1,400
Inside Parking Facility 300 600 900 1,200
red, not CC but I would think the City would increase the service hours at least on the weekends, especially since their downtown stop is only about 3 blocks away from Cherapa.
and here’s a link to InTrust, which also has lots of info on Parking and how they made that work:
http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/
Warren,
As I’ve stated before, there’s somewhere around 7 to 10 acres of land around the DT site that will be available once the tracks go, that alone could become 700-1000 spots that would be within 3 blocks, so add in even your estimates and you still end up with plenty of spots. Even more if places like Sioux Steel or Raven move out, which eventually will happen IMHO.
In Huether’s non-plan, he has the new parking at McCart, which is a 3 to 4 block walk to where he has the EC (Between HWF & the Sheraton) and also means the expense of replacing those diamonds. The namesake family isn’t too keen on the idea either.
Steve, “both” sides would involve allowing somebody not in favor of building.
poly,
The study you keep referring to was (as you’ve noted) performed after the EC task force had ALREADY recommended the DT location. It was NOT purposed to specifically study parking for the events center – but for ALL of DT.
The DT EC did its own traffic and parking studies SPECIFICALLY to compare parking at the Arena site vs. the DT site. DT won. Read it and weep.
http://www.siouxfalls.org/~/media/documents/publicworks/eventcenter/public_facilities_task_force_final_report_022305.ashx
You also might want to go out to the arena on this balmy September evening and try walking from the proposed McCart Field parking in the current “not-a-plan” and tell us what you’d think of making THAT walk on a chilly January Night. It’s almost 1/2 mile away. with ZERO in between except for open ground (other parking).
The Trolley and SAM routes and times could easily be altered. Look at what St. Louis does for Cardinals games. When I was at a Cardinals game we walked 11 or so blocks to where we were parked, past busy restaurants and bars with tons of fans. It was an awesome experience walking through all the buildings, seeing all the people. 40,000 or so People scattering through Downtown St. Louis, and it seemed to work for them? They had a good 10 city buses full of baseball fans going off in different directions to parking garages across the area and other parking spots in the area. That’s easily something we can implement as well. However the difference is, we will never have 40,000 people at that Events Center, the max would only be about 12,000 or a little more, and that would be only on certain occasions.
I think all of you should have been on the show. Would have been more interesting then two guys that don’t like each talk about the good people of SF.
Read it and weep.
~Rufus
Read it and weep? I have read it. Nothing new, other than task force con artists like knobe, entenmann, and beacom trying to sell us on this line.
“At the Downtown site, there are 3,280 existing public stalls (City-owned ramps, streets or surface lots) within four blocks.”
Within four blocks? Of what? Certainly not the proposed site. Please, show us rufus, by example, where these 3,280 magical public stalls are. And keep in mind, at least in DT Sioux Falls, a city block is 350 feet east and west and 400 feet north and south. From your proposed site, I would guess it is a 1000 foot or more walk from the corner of 8th and Phillips to the closest enclosed entry of your site. At least 4 months out of the year those kind of distances are huge. Even if the Events Center were planted squarely on the spot CNA is about to vacate, I doubt there are 3280 existing public stalls within four blocks.
You also might want to go out to the arena on this balmy September evening and try walking from the proposed McCart Field parking in the current “not-a-plan†and tell us what you’d think of making THAT walk on a chilly January Night. It’s almost 1/2 mile away. with ZERO in between except for open ground (other parking).
Don’t get me wrong rufus, I certainly am not in support of huethers non plan either. BUT….a half mile? I don’t think so. Maybe 1200 feet, TOPS, from the outer reaches of the farthest McCart diamond to the closest enclosed entry of the mayor hubris “vision”.
In Huether’s non-plan, he has the new parking at McCart, which is a 3 to 4 block walk to where he has the EC (Between HWF & the Sheraton)
Between HWF & the Sheraton? There is absolutely no room between HWF and the Sheraton for a 12,000 seat McArena. I believe the mayor hubris “vision” has a bullseye for the EC to be southwest of the southwest corner of the convention center. Come think of it…there is no room for one there either. Wow. What a visionary our mayor is. Looking at that complex from Google maps satellite the only way a McArena can be put up is to tear down HWF. Did not mayor hubris say that was not part of his “vision”?
Look at InTrust in Wichita, KS. 15K seat, just opened up.
Interesting. Several thoughts. Intrust has one Interstate system within 1000 feet of it’s doors and another within about a half mile. Those intersect very close to the site. Picture your McArena about where J&L Harley is relative to Interstate access.
And Wichita population? A July 1, 2009 estimate placed the population at 612,683 metropolitan area. That’s more than twice the size of the Sioux Falls metro. Should mean our present Arena for our population will work just fine. 🙂
rufusx: The DT EC did its own traffic and parking studies SPECIFICALLY to compare parking at the Arena site vs. the DT site. DT won.
That is sort of like citing one of those “clinical trials” that shows a diet pill works. Generally whoever is paying for the study will get the result they want, so should it shock us that DT won??
Either way that is a moot point. DT may have more parking than the Arena site, but as Poly pointed out early in this conversation, if you want to add more parking DT it will likely be in the form of ramps which can cost $20k per spot. Do you have any idea how many years it takes to pay for a ramp when each spot costs $20k??
As far as arguments about Raven moving or Sioux Steel moving etc, those are great – but we all know in reality if it happens that land will be priced exponentially high and the resulting parking will be cost prohibitive.
We might gain some area when those tracks are moved, but considering they have been talking about moving those tracks about about 5 years now who knows when it will actually happen. But that project doesn’t get done for free either – it will cost millions upon milions of dollars to move those tracks and that cost needs to be factored in.
I come back to what so many others have said in the past few years. How many concerts or events have we lost out on over the past five years because our current Arena isn’t big enough. Is it enough to justify spending $200M on a new facility if the payback period is 40-50 years? Is it a good idea to raise taxes to pay for a non-essential item?
By all means lets put it to a vote and just let the people decide. No need to continue to pour hundreds of thousands of dollars into studies year after year if the people don’t want it.
Warren,
Intrust has a State Highway a few blocks to the South, just like the Cherapa site has. And yes, being twice our size, they’ve made that road 4 lanes, divided and higher speed. Same thing we would do as we grow.
Costner:
“We might gain some area when those tracks are moved,”
No might about it Costner, there will be at least 7 acres opened up. Like Schoeneman’s, other downtown landowners will (& have) look at mixed use re-developement of their properties. Like CNA, they will add in extra parking because there will be a market for hourly rate/event parking.
I agree on the vote, and I think that if the DT site passes that test, the result will be a new focus on the tracks, the railyard relocation, and ultimately a solution to the Morrell’s/Stocktyards situation. Ultimately a downtown EC will help shape our entire transportation infrastructure for the better, in addition to being a better long term investment than the Arena.
FYI Sy. That 15,000 seat EC in Wichita? $206,000,000. And we’re gonna do a 12,000 seater for under a 100 mil?
The Wichita site just opened. How can it be declared a success already? We are having the same growing pains they had. I’ve read their online forum, and just like here, many have serious doubts about their parking scheme.
Poly: The Wichita site just opened. How can it be declared a success already?
Because contractors and their suppliers made their money… so it was a success right?
You didn’t get the memo?
And in the long run the city will make money? Yeah, don’t think you guys pointed that out. You guys continue to ignore the fact that economic centers like this produce tons of money, not necessarily for the center itself but for the city, with the increase in Sales Tax Revenue in businesses around the center, as well as new revenue from Development around the center.
Is everyone also considering the transportation/parking facts that I have put out there as well? Almost 2,000 spaces (SURFACE spots) were put in as a possibility to add to the plan for it Downtown, as well as the addition of extended SAM service, SAM service dedicated specifically to a major event, and Trolley service as well as walking, biking? Not all of these people will be driving to the event folks.
Sure, and for starters they spent $16 million on the site and another $3.5 million on off-site infrastructure.
The City still has an option (for now) to buy the Cherapa site for what Howalt/Scherschlight has paid for it, which I believe is $900K, but don’t quote me. We also wouldn’t need nearly that much in off site improvements unless we wanted to build a tunnel for the last track. The costs associated with Intrust’s construction was actually $183 mil and that includes the above monies. Works out to about $12K a seat and that is for a pretty amazing facility.
We are looking more like $10K a seat for our big concrete box we want to build, so the $100 to $120 mil range is what we think we can handle, and I agree that the City can. I just think we lose a once-in-a-generation chance to invest that money where it will make the biggest ripple.
Hey Sy. Remember that kid of mine we’ve discussed before? He’s goin to Lincoln this weekend with some friends to see the game. You’ll recognize him. He’ll be the the one wearing a Polamalu 43 jersey in a sea of red. 🙂
CC: And in the long run the city will make money? Yeah, don’t think you guys pointed that out.
Because it is highly subjective and debatable CC. To this day we are still subsidizing the Arena and people are continually citing the lack of development as reasons the new EC shouldn’t be built there, so it is hard to say if it has ever “made money”.
If you recall the recent article from the New York Times, it mentioned that “with more than four decades of evidence to back them up, economists almost uniformly agree that publicly financed stadiums rarely pay for themselves”.
Now you can debate that the EC isn’t a stadium, but the stadiums the NYT article referenced were also built as multi-use facilities just as our EC would be, yet the primary use of the EC will in fact be sports – so it is essentially a stadium.
The world is starting to realize cities invest in these types of projects for quality of life issues, but in the vast majority of cases they do not “make money” even with development and tax base increases factored in.
CC: Is everyone also considering the transportation/parking facts that I have put out there as well? Almost 2,000 spaces (SURFACE spots) were put in as a possibility to add to the plan for it Downtown, as well as the addition of extended SAM service, SAM service dedicated specifically to a major event, and Trolley service as well as walking, biking? Not all of these people will be driving to the event folks.
If you wish to extend SAM hours and add Trolley service – those cost more money, and public transportation is subsidized by the general fund so you can’t make the argument the extended hours will generate a profit either because it is the other way around.
Second, we know people from Sioux Falls shy away from public transit, because unlike a large metro area, most people don’t live as close to a bus station or depot. I suppose they could arrange to park people at the Fairgrounds and bus them over, but any costs associated with leasing parking facilities and/or shuffling people need to be factored in.
As to people riding bikes and walking – sure that will happen… for about 1.5% of the people attending an event. Look around – how many people current walk or ride bikes to a Stampede game or a Pheasants game or a concert held in the Arena? Very, very few… and even fewer in January when there is six inches of snow on the ground and the windchill is -24.
Like it or not parking is and will continue to be a significant issue at either location, but the issue to be determined is what will the final TOTAL cost be if we build downtown versus elsewhere. I don’t buy this $100M figure one bit as parking costs would soon balloon that up by a substantial amount. Then people are talking about the need to improve 12th street for easier access… so that cost needs to be included as well. If you want to move tracks, redevelop sites, relocate businesses, and build ramps and surface lots… again all of those costs need to be factored in.
Before you know it, the true budget is hovering just shy of $200M for a facility that will likely be empty around 150 days a year. If the true costs are revealed to the public, you are fighting an uphill battle to get this approved by the voters.
On a related note, I received an automated survey call about this very issue last night. I wonder who paid for it… because in my view it was very pro-downtown.
Ooooh, I may have to start answering my landline.
As to people riding bikes and walking – sure that will happen… for about 1.5% of the people attending an event. Look around – how many people current walk or ride bikes to a Stampede game or a Pheasants game or a concert held in the Arena?
The arena isn’t near the bike trail. It also isn’t near a lot of peoples’ homes. DT is.
Anybody who believes that masses of people will begin biking or walking to arena events is smoking some fantastic stuff.
You could make some type of a comparison to Jazzfest I suppose since it is held directly adjacent to the bike trail. There are typically a few hundred bikes there at any given point, and there are a fair number of people who walk because people live directly across 57th, but there are few key differences.
First, Jazzfest is held in the summer. If it was held in December, I doubt you would see any bikes, which means parking would need to be sized appropriately.
Second, people know when they go to Jazzfest they may end up walking 10 blocks for parking anyway, so if they can possibly ride a bike to prevent the walk they do so. In fact, many of the bikes are from people who park at another Sioux Falls park (such as the one by Cliff and I-229) and just ride over from there.
Third, people know Jazzfest is free, so they don’t expect parking and are willing to walk to make adjustments as necessary. There are large parking lots they do have available and there are private lots along 57th that charge for parking, and every sidestreet within 8 blocks is packed with parking – which seems like it would be a hassle, but since they run those little fair-like trailers to shuffle people back and forth it works pretty well. (I doubt we will have volunteers driving tractors to shuffle people back and forth to their cars during a Carrie Underwood concert).
Fourth, Jazzfest is an all-day event. People are more wiling to walk a longer distance for something when they know they will be there for five or six or more hours. However they aren’t as happy to walk 10 blocks if they are attending a Stampede game that will be over in two hours… especially if they are expected to pay higher ticket prices for the “privledge” of watching the game in a newer facility.
People go to jazziest knowing they’re going to sweat like a pig. People go to arena events wanting to look good, whether it’s wearing the team colors or the standard issue concert attire of that act. It’s a night on the town.
Are you guys still talking about this?
Costner:
” so it is hard to say if it has ever “made moneyâ€.”
No it really isn’t. We spent maybe $3 million or so to build the Arena in 1961 and it was minimally updated until 1997. If you think we haven’t recouped that inital investment back at least 5 to 10 times you are smoking some fantastic stuff as well.
That being said, the Arena area is still suffering from historical flaws that make it less attractive to invest in. Location x 3 is the make or break factor, whether that’s buying a home or investing in an EC.
L3wis:
“Are you guys still talking about this?”
Don’t worry, you haven’t missed much…although the Mayor just blinked.
He really looks stupid. He tries to play the corporate world games with the public, and he is finding out that it doesn’t work that way.
Sy: No it really isn’t. We spent maybe $3 million or so to build the Arena in 1961 and it was minimally updated until 1997. If you think we haven’t recouped that inital investment back at least 5 to 10 times you are smoking some fantastic stuff as well.
You failed to add in the yearly cost to the taxpayer in the form of subsidies which keeps the facility in the black. You failed to add in interest costs on the original funding. You failed to add in opportunity costs for the initial funding. You failed to add in lost revenue from any investment or interest income that would have occurred on the funds used for construction. You failed to include any potential revenue streams from other ventures that the funding could have been used for.
There is a lot more to it than simply starting with construction cost X and subtracting tax revenue Y to get a net result of “profit” Z.
I’m guessing someone else does your books.
No I didn’t, hence the range. Do you really think if were losing money or breaking even for 36 years they would’ve ever built the Convention Center addition?
Here’s what the consultants said in the first report:
“In comparison with historical impacts generated by Sioux Falls Arena, CSL has estimated that the presence
of a new Event Center could generate approximately $3.7 to $7.8 million in incremental direct spending in
Sioux Falls. This additional spending could result in incremental output of approximately $6.4 to $13.3 million and incremental earnings of approximately $3.2 to $6.6 million per year, and could support an additional 370 to 460 jobs in the Sioux Falls area.
In terms of fiscal impacts, total State sales, auto rental and tourism tax collections generated by the
proposed Event Center are estimated to range from $1.1 to $1.3 million annually. City sales, hotel and
gross receipts taxes generated by Event Center operations are estimated to range from $216,000 to
$486,000 in incremental State taxes, and $115,000 to $261,000 in incremental City taxes. These taxes are
in addition to the estimated taxes currently generated by Sioux Falls Arena operations.”
Those guys certainly factored in everything you mentioned, and then some. But we all know that the mighty Costner’s infinate speculative paranoia trumps a professional, degree-holding consultant(s) any day of the week.
& Poly, I’ll keep an eye out for Mike this weekend. He should stick out nicely in that sea of Red.
Sy: But we all know that the mighty Costner’s infinate speculative paranoia trumps a professional, degree-holding consultant(s) any day of the week.
I never said I knew the real impact, merely that it was hard to say if it really ever made money. Maybe this particular consultant says it does – maybe another consultant says it won’t, but if the facility costs $100-150M and we collect somewhere in the range of $3.2 to $6.6M in additional city tax revenue, how many years does it take to actually pay off the facility?
Frankly I’m not even sure what number I should use here because I’m not sure if the author meant to suggest incremental earnings are earnings for the city or just earnings for businesses which in turn pay taxes to the city, so pardon my ignorance as I give the city the benefit of the doubt here.
Because the thing is, additional tax revenue to the state is all fine and dandy, but they aren’t the ones paying for the facility, so that is sort of a non-issue unless you can convince them to pony up a portion of the construction cost.
So since we know the cost of money isn’t free, so can you really tell me that a business would invest in a new state-of-the art facility that cost $150M if they expected to only generate an additional $3.2 to $6.6 million in profit per year? That isn’t even enough to cover interest on the debt much less operating expenses.
Case in point a 5% loan of $150M for 30 years would result in interest costs of just shy of $7.5M the first year. Total payments per year would be around $9.6M, so how many years would it be before the city really saw a net increase on their funds?
Keep in mind if we didn’t raise taxes the average Sioux Falls taxpayer might have few more bucks to spend, and if we weren’t paying interest on the debt that money could potentially be used elsewhere or perhaps our city could even pay off other debt (which in turn means lower taxes yet again).
So yea, I’m not sure we can ever say the Arena has made money. I’m not saying it has, I’m not saying it hasn’t, but clearly there is a lot more to this than a simplistic calculation, and even the estimates given are highly speculative as things like economic factors can and do change things. Even their best estimates have a margin of error and a range of over $3M a year, so can we really hold anyone to them?
But hey I’m not an economist nor do I have access to the materials they used to generate their estimates so I’m not claiming to know either way. I also doubt my couple of degrees matter one bit – I just think we need a full disclosure instead of silly statements like “it will make money”.
He tries to play the corporate world games with the public, and he is finding out that it doesn’t work that way.
At this point I’m not so sure he ever had ANY kind of plan at all. The only real plan I see concerning the mayors vision involves being the headliner news for the mainstream media each day.
The reason I think he has no real plan is suggesting the arena site and at the same time leaving Howard Wood Stadium untouched. Can’t be done. At least not without purchasing the the school system central kitchen, the private property to the north of it, and doing away with Western Avenue.
Poly correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought there was mention of eliminating those baseball fields to the southwest of the convention center as well as a possibility of a ramp?
That said, the land to the direct east of the current CC and HWF is primarily lower cost residential, so it is feasible that land could be redeveloped by private developers and/or incorporated into the site design.
I’m not suggesting the Arena site is the right location by any means, but there are options. I still think we need a public vote to decide whether to build it at all before we spend millions more on studies and surveys and site planning, but I also acknowledge the powers that be want a pretty sketch they can present to the public in an effort to sway opinion.
the land to the direct east of the current CC and HWF is primarily lower cost residential, so it is feasible that land could be redeveloped by private developers and/or incorporated into the site design.
Do you mean west? Download this PDF
http://www.siouxfalls.org/News/2009/November/16/task_force_recommendation/task_force_report
and go to page 12 and take a close look. This is the latest and greatest vision from our latest and greatest task force. There is no way in hell that big purple box will fit anywhere around the convention center site without
A) Tearing out HWF as this illustration shows (but mayor hubris says HWF stays, so scratch that idea.)
B) Build to the southwest of the CC and do as I suggested in my previous post with the private property to the west.
C) Tear down the birdcage, erect the purple “vision”, and ship the baseball venue to munsons empty dream on North Phillips.
ANY of these options will cost beau coup bucks.
Poly: Do you mean west?
Yes…apparently my internal compass is jacked up. My error.
I agree the task force report makes it appear nearly impossible to fit that size structure on existing land around the Arena – perhaps your option B is feasible as I believe that is what he is suggesting, but as you said it will be costly.
Frankly I don’t really like the Arena location because it could make it difficult to use the Pheasants stadium, convention center, Arena, HWF, and new EC at the same time….hell even three out of the five would likely be impossible – but I guess the reality is the Arena will be empty 200 days a year and the EC empty at least 150 so that probably isn’t a huge or legitimate concern.
City sales, hotel and gross receipts taxes generated by Event Center operations are estimated to range from $115,000 to $261,000 in incremental City taxes. These taxes are in addition to the estimated taxes currently generated by Sioux Falls Arena operations.
Sy
if the facility costs $100-150M and we collect somewhere in the range of $3.2 to $6.6M in additional city tax revenue, how many years does it take to actually pay off the facility?
Costner
I think the numbers thrown out by Sy courtesy of CSL are a HUGE leap of faith, especially in view of it being OVER AND ABOVE the current Arena numbers. There is one person here who can help explain why. Scott Hudson. I’ve always liked your take on why McArena style entertainment is not what it used to be. Care to share that again?
Sy. You can scratch keepin an out for the kid. That could change depending on a few things, notably mother nature. This link pretty much says it all.
http://www.southdacola.com/blog/2010/08/the-heck-with-fixing-our-sewer-system-we-have-an-arena-to-build/
His situation is not nearly as drastic as the l3wis toon, but it could without a host of pumps and battery powerd backups. He’s thought of it all, and taken every safeguard possiible, but all these safeguards require oversight. I offered to stay and keep guard, but he says he’d feel better if he just stayed.
Lives in a developement south of town. I remember as a kid that area was great, if you enjoyed duck hunting as much as I did. I made the assumption developers had made the area liveable. Well….you know what they say about making assumptions.
I love how people have completely jumped over the “do we need it” question into the “where” and “how do we fund it”. Enjoy your terminally empty, over-subsidized moneypit.
Be sure to round the cost up to the nearest half-million again.