The Brandon exit would be best for an events center. Land is available at cheap prices. It’s easy access and would draw more from Iowa (new casino) and Minnesota. The Pipestone exit could finally be developed due to no sales taxes (food, lodging, retail). Brandon is progressive, growing, and not indecisive. They’re solvent and could float bonds. There’s not a problem with corruption and bid rigging that there is with home rule government. They have attracted a major wind energy manufacturer and new smaller companies. I do not live there but I’d rather travel there for events than deal with poor planning and conjestion here.
The Sioux Empire Fair actually makes money (well at least they do until someone steals it) so there is no reason to move it. This is where the population base is, so it makes sense to keep it here.
The State Fair on the otherhand is a bottomless bucket that leaks money every year. Time to cut the cord and if it dies so be it. The Ag part can be integrated with Mitchell’s Dakotafest and everything else can be disbanded.
PG, sorry but that idea makes no sense at all. If you located it there, 90% of all EC traffic would be coming in from the South & West. That won’t change much over it’s 50+ year lifespan. 90% of that traffic will come down the Interstate, while the rest would come up Splitrock off Rice or Hwy 11. Whether you come off the IS or coming up Splitrock would dump everyone in and out into a bottleneck that would stretch for several miles.
Now you may visualize a similar scenario at a downtown site, but if your traffic is split evenly heading in and out in each direction, plus you have a certain amount of that traffic that walks, bikes, cabs or shuttles in, or just decides to hang out for a meal or drink before or after the event, you minimalize the traffic impact substanitally.
The myth that you build next to an Interstate and you zip in and out is proven false by the Fair and Jazzfest.
The myth that you build next to an Interstate and you zip in and out is proven false by the Fair and Jazzfest.
Access in an out of both of those events is relatively painless, and a HELLOFALOT better than anything of that magnitude if it were downtown. You can’t even begin to argue that point.
Now we’re talking. The real point here is that if the city continues with wishy-washy, it will get built out of town like the Iowa Casino. A consortium of cities (ie. Tea/Harrisburg/Canton) teamed with the county can make it happen. Otherwise, it’s a perfect venture for the state at/near the Salem-US 81 exit between Sioux Falls and Mitchell. It’s important for city officials to set aside corruption and citizen harrassment long enough to get this going.
Access in an out of both of those events is relatively painless, and a HELLOFALOT better than anything of that magnitude if it were downtown. You can’t even begin to argue that point
Relative to what?
I’ve been to all kinds of DT events that supposedly snarled traffic and never had a problem finding a parking spot or getting out. Jazzfest… well let’s just say you’re better off parking at W/R/LHS and riding the bus in.
The fair is pretty quick to lget out of unless you leave when everyone else does. Since there’s nothing else to do near the fairgrounds, you have to get in the car and drive somewhere else. If you’re DT, you can walk to a lot of places.
My point is, Jazzfest has two access points close to two different I229 exits. The Fair has two access points, close to two I29 exits.
When you are at the end of the evening for either and Cowboy Troy or Aaron Neville say “thanks folks, good night!” You have the 10 minute walk to your car, then you have the 10 minute bumper to bumper crawl to get to that magic Interstate.
People keep coming to those Events and they deal with the snarl. Neither one has an option to leave the car parked and walk to grab a drink or some appetizers. Neither one has the option (or much of an option) to walk back to the hotel and head up to the room for a shag.
Neither one has suffered due to the snarl, and a downtown EC won’t either.
Snarl is always a problem at a major event. The Sioux City center is harder to get into and out from than either the fair or downtown. Other cities have a worse problem. Here, downtown is not served by major arterials. That is a big problem. Somewhere outlying, maybe along the new Highway 11 Bypass in Lincoln county. Yes, a good idea to involve many municipalities and both counties with maybe some state right-of-way acquisition. Many entities provides a checks and balances panel system to prevent bid rigging and police payments away from corrupt politicians. It’d work, but Sioux Falls city (strong mayor’s rule) would not collaborate or participate.
I’m not sure I agree. The difference is Jazzfest is held in a park that wasn’t originally designed to hold thousands of people (and their vehicles), so some congestion is inevitable. However, aside from the 10 minute walk to the car I’ve never had to even worry about traffic – zip right down 57th without so much as a hiccup.
The fair is much the same way – even after a concert. In fact the longest wait I ever had was when I parked at the fair for the airshow, but even then as soon as I hit Madison street I was on my way with no other delays. It was just getting out of the lot that was the issue, but a lot of that was simply logistics as nobody was guiding traffic.
An Events Center is going to be designed to hold at least 10,000 people which means all of those vehicles need a way to leave at roughly the same time. Yes you could argue some will stay around for some food or drinks, but that clearly will be a very small minority.
You can’t really base the traffic upon existing downtown events either, because not everyone leaves at the same time for Hot Harley Nights or Hot Summer Nights or Automania etc. If you happen to go downtown for a parade where people are leaving at the same time, you wait will be longer than anything out at the fairgrounds that much is a given… and I’ve experienced it.
Do I think traffic is going to be a detraction to most people? No – because most people understand it is part of the deal when you attend a large event. My point is only that access in and out would be exponentially less painful if the EC were built in a location other than downtown. Even the Howard Wood field location would be a vast improvement even if I hate the idea, but based upon events at the Arena one has to admit the traffic isn’t usually a huge issue.
What is happening now is like most mid size cities. The metro outskirts may continue to grow but the city limits is becoming blight. Not that there is a shortage of funding, but because it is spent foolishly with side channels to favored contractors. Case in point, Plano TX. Dallas rhymes with crime and infrastructure has collapsed. Plano has a mortgage mess but homes are occupied and there are still jobs.
Do I think traffic is going to be a detraction to most people? No – because most people understand it is part of the deal when you attend a large event. My point is only that access in and out would be exponentially less painful if the EC were built in a location other than downtown.
The people we paid a lot of money to study the issue disagree. When they actually did the traffic studies, the DT location won because there are so many ways in and out. It’s teh same concept as a football stadium. They can empty out hte metrodome in five minutes because there are so many gates leading out of the stadium. Hell, even Rome figured that out 2000 years ago.
I believe DT is ideal for the Event center. Not only for the reasons of having dining infrastructure already DT you can keep HW field, fix up the Arena and the convention center and they would still have their places. In bigger cities they also have park and rides. SF could do that to. Seattle started that over 20 years ago for workers. It would be ideal for people who come to events that live out of town and don’t like driving in SF. You could build small parking lots along the interstate, you could also charge a fee which would bring in extra revenue. They are really nice, because when it is 30 below out and you walk out of the event center you can get on a warm bus.
The people we paid a lot of money to study the issue disagree. When they actually did the traffic studies, the DT location won because there are so many ways in and out.
You’re right – surely paying a group to come up with the answer you desire is always a sure fire way to ensure a study is accurate and unbiased. Sort of like that parking study they continually quote that counted every single available spot including all street spots and even the private parking ramp at the Holiday Inn.
I guess when Kid Rock or Toby Keith comes to down, homeowners in the area are expected to park on their lawns and the Holiday Inn needs to close their doors. That will be awesome.
You’re right – surely paying a group to come up with the answer you desire is always a sure fire way to ensure a study is accurate and unbiased.
The result ‘they’ wanted was a big clone of the Fargodome on the HWF site. They didn’t get it. The consultants looked at both the HWF and DT sites, and crunched raw numbers.
My guess is that they counted all those spots because we midwesterners think we have a God-given right to park within ten foeet of the door of any place we need to go. I personally don’t care nearly so much about parking as I do collateral development.
If consultants concluded downtown was best, maybe so. Involving other municipalities and 2 counties should somehow come into play. Maybe a 2 counties managed effort. SF government has shown they do not manage well and money management becomes out of control. If home rule is repealed, the city council could keep the mayor in check. Then, bids would be competative and in line with a real budget. Otherwise, it’s an empty hole like the Washington Pavilion and Phillips to Nowhere.
PG- You make a good point. This year’s city budget is $500 Million. Yet the county can’t find enough money to hire a window helper at the treasurer’s office. I think our taxation system in SD is fucked. 30 years of neo-con rule will do that.
“plus you have a certain amount of that traffic that walks, bikes, cabs or shuttles in”
I know there’s a certain glamor with living downtown, but despite our Mayor’s predictions that 60,000 will live there in a few years the majority of the population have been and will continue to be driving to any event.
Another reason an EC out in the ‘burbs will be doomed is from the multitude of NIMBY’s that will come out against it.
Those little suburb dwellers, farmers, acreage owners were there first and they won’t want a huge concrete box down the road ruining the fresh country air with dust and traffic. County Commisioners win their seats often by a handful of votes, no way they would back the idea.
Another study done a while back estimated that up to 10K people could eventually be living downtown, this was based on proposed developments and available room for future stuff. Those people will be looking or the urban, loft experience and would be the types to move down there precisely to be closer to an EC and the new entertainment/shopping/dining it would draw.
60K, no..but 10K in 20-30 years wouldn’t be farfetched. Again, the study was based on what other cities are seeing along with what we could reasonably achieve.
That type of development will not only save some buildings that would otherwise get leveled for a stip mall, but it will also help attract the kinds of professional jobs we all would like to have more of.
OK, seems like DT passes but maybe a little east. How about the old Sears store and surrounding. Government offices here could be moved to lease space in a dying strip mall. The new pool could become part of it, there’d be access to the bike trails (bike there), and walking distance to downtown. Wait for home rule repeal, involve/pay councilors more, and include the county. County could be finance manager and city would be construction superintendant. Then, it can happen in the next 5 years on time and on budget.
I think there is enough money to hire extra help at the county treasurer, but the treasurer and county commission are in the middle of a big pissing match right now.
The Brandon exit would be best for an events center. Land is available at cheap prices. It’s easy access and would draw more from Iowa (new casino) and Minnesota. The Pipestone exit could finally be developed due to no sales taxes (food, lodging, retail). Brandon is progressive, growing, and not indecisive. They’re solvent and could float bonds. There’s not a problem with corruption and bid rigging that there is with home rule government. They have attracted a major wind energy manufacturer and new smaller companies. I do not live there but I’d rather travel there for events than deal with poor planning and conjestion here.
Now, let’s talk about combining the State Fair with the Sioux Empire Fair and locating it in Mitchell.
The Sioux Empire Fair actually makes money (well at least they do until someone steals it) so there is no reason to move it. This is where the population base is, so it makes sense to keep it here.
The State Fair on the otherhand is a bottomless bucket that leaks money every year. Time to cut the cord and if it dies so be it. The Ag part can be integrated with Mitchell’s Dakotafest and everything else can be disbanded.
Sorry Huron – but nobody likes you.
They’re solvent and could float bonds.
Just how is a city with less than 6,000 residents going to float $150 million in bonds?
PG, sorry but that idea makes no sense at all. If you located it there, 90% of all EC traffic would be coming in from the South & West. That won’t change much over it’s 50+ year lifespan. 90% of that traffic will come down the Interstate, while the rest would come up Splitrock off Rice or Hwy 11. Whether you come off the IS or coming up Splitrock would dump everyone in and out into a bottleneck that would stretch for several miles.
Now you may visualize a similar scenario at a downtown site, but if your traffic is split evenly heading in and out in each direction, plus you have a certain amount of that traffic that walks, bikes, cabs or shuttles in, or just decides to hang out for a meal or drink before or after the event, you minimalize the traffic impact substanitally.
The myth that you build next to an Interstate and you zip in and out is proven false by the Fair and Jazzfest.
The myth that you build next to an Interstate and you zip in and out is proven false by the Fair and Jazzfest.
Access in an out of both of those events is relatively painless, and a HELLOFALOT better than anything of that magnitude if it were downtown. You can’t even begin to argue that point.
Now we’re talking. The real point here is that if the city continues with wishy-washy, it will get built out of town like the Iowa Casino. A consortium of cities (ie. Tea/Harrisburg/Canton) teamed with the county can make it happen. Otherwise, it’s a perfect venture for the state at/near the Salem-US 81 exit between Sioux Falls and Mitchell. It’s important for city officials to set aside corruption and citizen harrassment long enough to get this going.
Funny part is, you may be on to something here. I think the neighboring towns should chip in.
Access in an out of both of those events is relatively painless, and a HELLOFALOT better than anything of that magnitude if it were downtown. You can’t even begin to argue that point
Relative to what?
I’ve been to all kinds of DT events that supposedly snarled traffic and never had a problem finding a parking spot or getting out. Jazzfest… well let’s just say you’re better off parking at W/R/LHS and riding the bus in.
The fair is pretty quick to lget out of unless you leave when everyone else does. Since there’s nothing else to do near the fairgrounds, you have to get in the car and drive somewhere else. If you’re DT, you can walk to a lot of places.
My point is, Jazzfest has two access points close to two different I229 exits. The Fair has two access points, close to two I29 exits.
When you are at the end of the evening for either and Cowboy Troy or Aaron Neville say “thanks folks, good night!” You have the 10 minute walk to your car, then you have the 10 minute bumper to bumper crawl to get to that magic Interstate.
People keep coming to those Events and they deal with the snarl. Neither one has an option to leave the car parked and walk to grab a drink or some appetizers. Neither one has the option (or much of an option) to walk back to the hotel and head up to the room for a shag.
Neither one has suffered due to the snarl, and a downtown EC won’t either.
Snarl is always a problem at a major event. The Sioux City center is harder to get into and out from than either the fair or downtown. Other cities have a worse problem. Here, downtown is not served by major arterials. That is a big problem. Somewhere outlying, maybe along the new Highway 11 Bypass in Lincoln county. Yes, a good idea to involve many municipalities and both counties with maybe some state right-of-way acquisition. Many entities provides a checks and balances panel system to prevent bid rigging and police payments away from corrupt politicians. It’d work, but Sioux Falls city (strong mayor’s rule) would not collaborate or participate.
I’m not sure I agree. The difference is Jazzfest is held in a park that wasn’t originally designed to hold thousands of people (and their vehicles), so some congestion is inevitable. However, aside from the 10 minute walk to the car I’ve never had to even worry about traffic – zip right down 57th without so much as a hiccup.
The fair is much the same way – even after a concert. In fact the longest wait I ever had was when I parked at the fair for the airshow, but even then as soon as I hit Madison street I was on my way with no other delays. It was just getting out of the lot that was the issue, but a lot of that was simply logistics as nobody was guiding traffic.
An Events Center is going to be designed to hold at least 10,000 people which means all of those vehicles need a way to leave at roughly the same time. Yes you could argue some will stay around for some food or drinks, but that clearly will be a very small minority.
You can’t really base the traffic upon existing downtown events either, because not everyone leaves at the same time for Hot Harley Nights or Hot Summer Nights or Automania etc. If you happen to go downtown for a parade where people are leaving at the same time, you wait will be longer than anything out at the fairgrounds that much is a given… and I’ve experienced it.
Do I think traffic is going to be a detraction to most people? No – because most people understand it is part of the deal when you attend a large event. My point is only that access in and out would be exponentially less painful if the EC were built in a location other than downtown. Even the Howard Wood field location would be a vast improvement even if I hate the idea, but based upon events at the Arena one has to admit the traffic isn’t usually a huge issue.
My post was in response to GoD and Sy…not to yours PG. Hope that makes sense.
What is happening now is like most mid size cities. The metro outskirts may continue to grow but the city limits is becoming blight. Not that there is a shortage of funding, but because it is spent foolishly with side channels to favored contractors. Case in point, Plano TX. Dallas rhymes with crime and infrastructure has collapsed. Plano has a mortgage mess but homes are occupied and there are still jobs.
Do I think traffic is going to be a detraction to most people? No – because most people understand it is part of the deal when you attend a large event. My point is only that access in and out would be exponentially less painful if the EC were built in a location other than downtown.
The people we paid a lot of money to study the issue disagree. When they actually did the traffic studies, the DT location won because there are so many ways in and out. It’s teh same concept as a football stadium. They can empty out hte metrodome in five minutes because there are so many gates leading out of the stadium. Hell, even Rome figured that out 2000 years ago.
I believe DT is ideal for the Event center. Not only for the reasons of having dining infrastructure already DT you can keep HW field, fix up the Arena and the convention center and they would still have their places. In bigger cities they also have park and rides. SF could do that to. Seattle started that over 20 years ago for workers. It would be ideal for people who come to events that live out of town and don’t like driving in SF. You could build small parking lots along the interstate, you could also charge a fee which would bring in extra revenue. They are really nice, because when it is 30 below out and you walk out of the event center you can get on a warm bus.
The people we paid a lot of money to study the issue disagree. When they actually did the traffic studies, the DT location won because there are so many ways in and out.
You’re right – surely paying a group to come up with the answer you desire is always a sure fire way to ensure a study is accurate and unbiased. Sort of like that parking study they continually quote that counted every single available spot including all street spots and even the private parking ramp at the Holiday Inn.
I guess when Kid Rock or Toby Keith comes to down, homeowners in the area are expected to park on their lawns and the Holiday Inn needs to close their doors. That will be awesome.
You’re right – surely paying a group to come up with the answer you desire is always a sure fire way to ensure a study is accurate and unbiased.
The result ‘they’ wanted was a big clone of the Fargodome on the HWF site. They didn’t get it. The consultants looked at both the HWF and DT sites, and crunched raw numbers.
My guess is that they counted all those spots because we midwesterners think we have a God-given right to park within ten foeet of the door of any place we need to go. I personally don’t care nearly so much about parking as I do collateral development.
If consultants concluded downtown was best, maybe so. Involving other municipalities and 2 counties should somehow come into play. Maybe a 2 counties managed effort. SF government has shown they do not manage well and money management becomes out of control. If home rule is repealed, the city council could keep the mayor in check. Then, bids would be competative and in line with a real budget. Otherwise, it’s an empty hole like the Washington Pavilion and Phillips to Nowhere.
PG- You make a good point. This year’s city budget is $500 Million. Yet the county can’t find enough money to hire a window helper at the treasurer’s office. I think our taxation system in SD is fucked. 30 years of neo-con rule will do that.
Speaking of myths:
“plus you have a certain amount of that traffic that walks, bikes, cabs or shuttles in”
I know there’s a certain glamor with living downtown, but despite our Mayor’s predictions that 60,000 will live there in a few years the majority of the population have been and will continue to be driving to any event.
Another reason an EC out in the ‘burbs will be doomed is from the multitude of NIMBY’s that will come out against it.
Those little suburb dwellers, farmers, acreage owners were there first and they won’t want a huge concrete box down the road ruining the fresh country air with dust and traffic. County Commisioners win their seats often by a handful of votes, no way they would back the idea.
Another study done a while back estimated that up to 10K people could eventually be living downtown, this was based on proposed developments and available room for future stuff. Those people will be looking or the urban, loft experience and would be the types to move down there precisely to be closer to an EC and the new entertainment/shopping/dining it would draw.
Scott,
60K, no..but 10K in 20-30 years wouldn’t be farfetched. Again, the study was based on what other cities are seeing along with what we could reasonably achieve.
That type of development will not only save some buildings that would otherwise get leveled for a stip mall, but it will also help attract the kinds of professional jobs we all would like to have more of.
L3wis,
“I believe DT is ideal for the Event center. ”
Welcome home, the more you analyze the issue and take an objective look at the available data, that more that conclusion becomes crystal clear.
OK, seems like DT passes but maybe a little east. How about the old Sears store and surrounding. Government offices here could be moved to lease space in a dying strip mall. The new pool could become part of it, there’d be access to the bike trails (bike there), and walking distance to downtown. Wait for home rule repeal, involve/pay councilors more, and include the county. County could be finance manager and city would be construction superintendant. Then, it can happen in the next 5 years on time and on budget.
I think there is enough money to hire extra help at the county treasurer, but the treasurer and county commission are in the middle of a big pissing match right now.