I was actually surprised we had so many. I wonder what the per capita rate is for the states? I heard that SD ranks around #1. And you wonder why we continue to not have an income tax, instead we find it fitting to tax the poor on food;
In 2006, South Dakota ranked 44th in the nation with 11,769 millionaire households. While that number rose to 12,563 in 2007, the state’s rank actually dropped to 47th. The state rose to 41 with 12,151 millionaire households in 2008, but dropped to 47 this year with 10,646.
Just think if we put a 6% income tax just on those 10,646 residents (based on only making $1 million a year) the state would raise $638,760,000 million. With that kind of dough, we could eliminate video lottery, retail taxes and reduce property taxes in one clean sweep. But hey, that would make sense and be fair, how dare we!
A lot of those are just technically residents, as our state has few requirements. Many who actually reside in a state with an income tax establish residency here to avoid paying.
Take care; the green of your envy is showing!
Bob, why is it when the working class mention the injustice of not taxing the rich enough the first thing neo-cons and teabaggers scream is “You are just jealous.” You really need to get another talking point.
Lewis – you suck at math… or you don’t understand what is meant by a “millionaire household”.
Most of the people who fall into that category don’t make in excess of seven figures a year… far from it actually. Hell quite a few of them have probably never made more than $50k a year, but if you invest properly and actually SAVE money rather than spending every penny and then some, it tends to add up over the decades.
Thus, it might take the average “millionaire” 20 or 30 or even 40 years to obtain that level of net worth, and thus even though they are technically a millionaire, it does not suggest we could simply tax their income to eradicate our problems.
So basically your idea to tax millionaires is making huge assumptions and simply does not match reality. The state does not have over 12,000 people who are pulling in $1M+ a year… that would be insane to even suggest such a thing.
You should read the book entitled “The Millionaire Next Door”. It would give you a lot of insight about what the typical millionaire looks and acts like… and it is far from what you might expect.
One of the problems with taxing money away from a millionaire is that millionaire might be planning to create your next job with that money.
Most of SD millionaires are small business owners, farmers and ranchers. Most likely they own a lot of land and buildings and have large mortgages, almost no cash and struggle to plant the next crop, make the next payroll or buy the new equipment to expand their business and create new jobs. Most of these millionaire work 60 to 90 hours per week. Just the kind of people that should be punished with higher taxes?
Many farmers who bought land in the early 40’s are now “millionaires” (my uncle is one) They have their land in a trust-so they cannot sell any without doing the legal work to change the trust–which is very expensive. They live on the income from the trust because SS was not an option for them when it was established. They live carefully–frugally even–but their net worth is great. Even though they are millionairs they are just regular farm folks–if you are hungry they will feed you–If you need work they might employ you (but plan to actually WORK hard–like they do. Why should we take away what they have worked hard for to give it to those who are not making good hard working decisions?
Makes no sense!
You are missing my point. I understand ‘job creation’ etc., but that argument is pretty laughable considering that we have almost the lowest hourly wages in the nation – maybe that is why we have so many millionaires.
The point I was making was that we think it is okay to tax food at 6% which only impacts the poor and working class, but when someone brings up a 6% income tax instead – heads explode, as you have shown. I still think the state would be much better off abolishing retail taxes, video lottery, reducing property taxes and implementing an income tax. It would generate more revenue, and most of all it is fair to everyone. As Al points out, if millionaires are investing their money back into the business, they don’t have to pay taxes on it, so why would they be opposed?
I think we know why.
l3wis:
Your logic is flawed. If I earn money in December of 2009, an income tax would take some of that money away from me by April 15th of 2010. I would not have time to create a job with the money that I earned. Your new income tax would decrease my ability to create a job.
I think it would be a better idea to not increase taxes on the entrepreneur before they have the opportunity to create jobs.
You say, “we have almost the lowest hourly wages in the nationâ€. I can’t find that anywhere. Can you provide a reliable source for that statistic?
Al- You are flawed. You claim we should not raise taxes on small business owners (like yourself) because you ‘might’ create a job. That is a silly argument. That’s like me going to file my 2009 taxes and telling the tax preparer to let me write off a new computer that I ‘might’ buy in 2010. He would laugh me out of his office.
This is a ranking in 2004, we were at 50th. Not sure where we are at today, but I think we might be at 49th.
http://www.ors2.state.sc.us/abstract/chapter1/staterank5.php
BTW- I would think a small business owner and state representative would have this information.
And, one more thing Al, I have trouble believing a guy who would vote for this;
http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2009/Bill.aspx?Bill=HCR1005
He was, quite possibly the worst president in American History. I still love the bumper sticker “Never thought I would miss Nixon.”
And, I am just curious, how much above minimum wage do you pay your employees at your family fun park?
About the minimum-wage thing: Would you rather have more people get jobs at minimum-wage, or fewer people get jobs at a slightly higher wage?
I don’t know what the answer is, but I had to ask the question.
And don’t tell me there isn’t a tinge of envy in your constant put-downs of anybody who makes money. And why aren’t you beating up on liberals who make gazzillions off scaring kids about dead polar bears?
funny how when you ask these “poor small business owners” who don’t think an income tax is fair to rich people, how much they pay their hourly employees, you never get a response.
Oh, and just an addendum to my prior comment: I have no problem with AlGore being a gazzillionaire. I’m a capitalist, and hey, he earned it, and as far as I know, he’s not done anything illegal to earn it. It’s just that liberals and anti-business types fail to acknowledge guys like AlGore.
Like I have said in the past, there is a difference between creating a ‘job’ and creating a ‘good job’ What good is a minimum wage job if I have to have 3 of them to survive.
As for being jealous of the rich, nonsense. I don’t have a problem with rich people, in fact several of my friends are very wealthy. I have a problem with GREEDY rich people who fuck over people to attain that wealth.
And yes, Scott, I would be curious to see what Mr. Novstrup pays his miniature golf attendants.
l3wis, How many quality jobs have you created? Want to compare?
I contend if you raise taxes less jobs will be created. You disagree. Check with an econ professor and let me know what he says.
If we can avoid name calling and personal attacks from anonymous people, we can have a discusssion and maybe we can learn something about the other’s position.
I think your attack of my vote to commend President Bush is off topic.
Al, still haven’t answered the question, which does not surprise me, how much do you pay? If someone worked at your golf course full-time, could they survive on that wage? Like I said above, this isn’t about creating jobs, this is about creating quality jobs.
I know it was off topic to mention your GW Bush vote, but I was making a point, anybody who would vote for something like that isn’t qualified to make a judgement about taxation, Bush proved that cutting taxes for the wealthy doesn’t create jobs.
As for ‘attacking’ you, don’t be silly. Your vote is on the public record and last I checked you are a public official, I have every right to ‘dissent’ what you do as a public official, that is what democracies are based on, discussion and debate.
l3wis
You are right, An employee can’t survive year round working working an unskilled job for three to five months per year.
Do you think we need a law to force employors to pay a living wage?
What wage per hour is a living wage?
How many quality jobs have you created?
I don’t mind a debate on my voting record. I just prefer it is on topic.
But let’s assume this job was 12 months out of the year and 40 hours a week? Then could they? It is not a tough question, how much do you pay? You somehow want a pat on the back because you ‘create jobs’ all the while continuing to avoid the question.
You want a tax break, yet you don’t pass that savings onto your employees, so why should we give you that break?
You are the one that changed the subject. This discussion was about an income tax, not a small business tax. An income tax would be paid by anybody making an income, not just small business owners. And like I said above, tax cuts don’t create jobs, that is a bullshit myth Republicans have been feeding the American public for far too long. Let’s take Clinton for example, he raised taxes on the rich and the economy and employment were very high. Your hero, apparently, the bestest, greatest, most awesomenest president ever, GW Dush cut taxes for the rich. In return they sent jobs oversees and created the biggest recession and unemployment numbers since the great depression.
As for forcing employers to pay a living wage, I don’t agree with that, however, people need to get paid what they deserve, they also need to be rewarded when they help to make a business successful.
That 1 in 70 number is misleading. There’s a big difference between personal income and net worth. Good luck if you wnat to try to asess people a special tax based on only $1 million of net worth.
I realize it was a pie in the sky number, but I think a income tax is more reliable and more fair.
“I still think the state would be much better off abolishing retail taxes, video lottery, reducing property taxes and implementing an income tax.” How much money would be lost from the tourist industry by doing this? I would much rather the guy driving his $300k motor home to Sturgis contribute to our state government, rather than relying completely on our citizens income. You would soon learn how “poor” our state really is.
Come on Al. Cut the BS and just answer l3wis’ question.
….how much do you pay? You somehow want a pat on the back because you ‘create jobs’ all the while continuing to avoid the question.
Based on the pricing Al gets for “family fun”, you’d think it was in the living wage range. But, alas, I highly doubt that. I’d venture a guess somewhere in the $7 to $8 an hour range with ZERO benefits.
http://www.thunderroad.info/family_fun/pricing.html
Anybody got any popcorn?
Warren or l3wis, do you own a business? If so, what do you pay your employees? If you have unskilled labor do they deserve more than min wage and if so why? It’s thunder road not rocket science. For crap sakes, these kids working there are not looking at this as a life long career, it’s a summer job, I hope. You two need to use your heads as hard as that is. Good luck guys.
Seems we scared low wage payer, millionaire representative Novstrup away. Like most politicians, when asked to answer a question they run away.
owk says:
Warren or l3wis, do you own a business? If so, what do you pay your employees? If you have unskilled labor do they deserve more than min wage and if so why? It’s thunder road not rocket science.
Fair enough question. You wanna apologize for daddy warbucks novstrup and his “quality” job creation, then you certainly have that right. BUT NOT ME owk. Quite frankly this town has way too many daddy warbucks in it and is the number ONE reason this great nation is in decline.
Examples??? This town has 120,000 jobs that average less than $16.00 an hour in wages. And I’m being generous with that number because it includes 3,680 management occupations that average $43.47 an hour. And no, OWK, there is no way these 120,000 jobs are manned by kids doing summer work in what you describe as “not rocket science”.
Do YOU think $16.00 an hour or less is a living wage owk? Didn’t think so. So WHY do you think it should be for anyone else?
Another example of the middle class joining the working poor in SF? As a lifelong resident here, I’ll give you one. When I graduated from high school in the mid ’60’s my immediate future, along with thousands of others like me, was dictated by the military draft. Just a question of when, not if. In spite of that, I still landed a non skilled warehouse job making $2.20 an hour to start. ANY inflation calculator will tell you that is $14.69 an hour in todays dollars. Six months later I was making $2.50 an hour ($16.69 in todays dollars) Morrells was paying an average $6.00 an hour back then, somewhere in the $40 an hour plus range in todays dollars. Was working at Morrells rocket science owk? Still…the point is, ALL the daddy warbucks in this town will NEVER allow a living wage. I got lucky. Retired with a pension,(you’ve heard of that concept owk?) a decent 401k, and social security when the time comes. How many of todays working poor are going to be as lucky as I was? VERY DAMN FEW. But that’s OK with you owk. You got yours. Screw everyone else.
Have you ever had a babysitter? Or what about the neighbor kid who mowed your lawn or shoveled your sidewalk? What did you pay them? That’s what I thought. You weren’t shelling out anywhere near $16/hr for them.
Yeah, I got mine…by getting my degree. I’m sorry to be the one to tell you but life is not fair. Do you know the risk involved in starting a business? What happens if that business folds, who is on the hook for the loans, taxes, property, rent, etc? Not the employees, it’s the owner who took the risk to start the business. Have you ever thought about that? It is up to the person to start the business and what to pay the employees. Are some owners more generous than others? Sure, go work for them.
owk says:
Have you ever had a babysitter? Or what about the neighbor kid who mowed your lawn or shoveled your sidewalk? What did you pay them? That’s what I thought. You weren’t shelling out anywhere near $16/hr for them.
Yeah, I got mine…by getting my degree. I’m sorry to be the one to tell you but life is not fair.
We’re not talking about 14 year old babysitters owk. We’re talking about family bread winners in the working world. How about the 27,430 Sioux Falls office and support workers group? YOU might think starting them off at $9.15 an hour is OK for the so called “middle class”…I do not. But then, if those 27,430 workers can somehow stick it out for a few years they can elevate themselves all the way to the 50th percentile for that work group. A WHOPPING $12.81 an hour. PLEASE…SPARE ME YOUR BS LECTURE owk.
Suppose those same 27,430 workers ALL get your precious degree. Guess what? Those same poverty level jobs that start at $9.15 an hour will be waiting for em when they graduate.
Your condescending attitude toward the working poor in this town is sickening. You got yours. Fuck everybody else.
The irony of all this is that if you pay your workers livable wages it helps the economy. People who make more money spend more money. I often wonder where the economists stand on that concept.
sounds like a bunch of sour grapes from those who do not make more than min wage. You’re right, somebody has to work those $9/hr jobs. Thunder Road does not have bread winners working there, at least not many.
Again, I will ask you, who takes responsibility for the business when it goes out of business or the overhead exceeds the income? Is it the employees or is it the owner? Do you feel for the owner of a closed business who now owes money for loans, property, rent, etc? Or is it just fuck that owner, he didn’t pay his employees $30/hr because he was watching his own ass? Spare me the lecture until you’ve owned your own business and have taken the risk you really don’t have a place to say shit. Play armchair quarterback all you want. At least I know what is like to be a former small business owner and a current employee.
Owk- That is how capitalism works, you take a risk it’s your ass on the line. You are really running in circles on this one.
In case you hadn’t noticed owk, I was talking about this group of breadwinners. Shift and dodge all you want owk.
How about the 27,430 Sioux Falls office and support workers group? YOU might think starting them off at $9.15 an hour is OK for the so called “middle classâ€â€¦I do not. But then, if those 27,430 workers can somehow stick it out for a few years they can elevate themselves all the way to the 50th percentile for that work group. A WHOPPING $12.81 an hour. PLEASE…SPARE ME YOUR BS LECTURE owk.
I’m also addressing the 120,000 people in this town who toil for less than $16.00 an hour. You know…the working poor you have absolutely no compassion for. Just so YOU can say “I got mine. FUCK You.”
Do you think guys like your buddy novstrup should make 100 times a year more than what his mechanics for his go-carts make? You prolly do.
While over 40% of the SF School District’s students are getting free or reduced lunches. Do you think their parents are making a ‘living wage’?
http://www.thunderroad.info/employment/index.html
“You might be scheduled for any shift. Sometimes you won’t get home until late in the evening.
You must be able to work on evenings, weekends, and holidays. Holidays include Memorial Day, the Fourth of July, and Labor Day.”
Really, just how much is this worth to someone?
If they’re anything like the movie theatres, you don’t get an extra peny per hour if you’re scheduled to work on a holiday.
Working Christmas for $5.15 an hour in high school taught me that I never wanted to work for an employer like that again.
I heard the snowplow operators were making over $40 an hour plowing snow over the holidays. I think it is time I get my CDL.
Exactly that is how capitalism works, if you don’t like working for someone start a business so you can work for yourself instead of bitching like little babies about how much people get paid. If starting a business and being an owner is so easy start it and go pay your employees some fantastic wage, I’m expecting both of you to go out and start a business. Let us all know what it is so we can apply and you can pay me and my family a great wage and I won’t have to work late or weekends or holidays. Talk about running circles.
Poly, l3wis, keep me informed on that new business venture once you figure it out. Maybe you can start a mechanics shop that Al will have to contract w/you to fix his go carts, you can employ his mechanics, and you can charge the shit out of him. There is your million dollar idea, you can thank me later.
Or you two can keep working for the man and crying yourselves to sleep at night about how much you’ve been paid. Good luck w/that new venture.
Poly, l3wis, keep me informed on that new business venture once you figure it out. Maybe you can start a mechanics shop that Al will have to contract w/you to fix his go carts, you can employ his mechanics, and you can charge the shit out of him. There is your million dollar idea, you can thank me later.
Or you two can keep working for the man and crying yourselves to sleep at night about how much you’ve been paid. Good luck w/that new venture.
Gotta scoop for ya owk. Don’t need a new business venture. Thanks to a union and working a career that paid eight hours pay for eight hours work, I am RETIRED. Also for thirty years I put 15% of my wages into a retirement account, 5% by my employer, and very generous returns on my investments during the Clinton years. Know how I was able to drop 15% into a retirement account? Because I was paid a real working mans salary…FOR THIRTY YEARS. And guess what? My employer is still in business. Maybe not a multibillionaire like t denny but still rich and respected. How many of novstrups employees will say they respect him for his treatment of the working class? Oh….and lest I forget, also drawing 60% a year of my final 3 year average wages as a pension plan. And in a year or so, when I turn social security eligable, I might just opt to start drawing that too. Not sure on that yet. The point is this owk. How many today in the work world have access to a three legged stool for their retirement years?
Do you? Is that why yer still workin for the man? Or at least pretending too while yer cruisin the net? Does the man know yer here?
Owk-
Employees take a risk also working for a new business venture, what do they do if the business folds? A business they helped get started. They have to look for new jobs. Risk is shared, remember, most employers can’t run their business with out employees, that’s why some of them paying a living wage, they understand this important partnership. If you want to pay shit and treat your employees like shit, it will reflect in the product you produce.
Owk:
“…At least I know what is like to be a former small business owner and a current employee.”
All’s well that ends well.
Employees that work for a business that folds go find a new job. While that sucks for them, they do not have financial ties to that job like the loans taken out to start that business, so your point is pointless. Not to mention the taxes, social security, benefits paid by the employer. (PS, your employer pays the other half of your social security, benefits if you have them, and taxes, figure those into your wages) Risk is not shared unless those employees help pay for the existing loans and all the other points I mentioned earlier.
Poly, good for you. You are one of the lucky ones I guess. I’m happy for you in the fact that you grew up when you did. Yay, Poly! The fact is the way you grew up isn’t the way the rest of us are growing up now. Things change and obviously the business climate has changed. As has your bone density and hair line, them’s the facts of life. It would be great if we could all have a pension and great retirement but look what that great pension did for GM.
anonimous. not sure what you mean but, ok. the business was over because of a move and the fine people of SD could not support the venture we started that the people of WA would and could.
America is a great place where you can start your own business where the gov’t does not dictate what you pay your employees, yourself, or how you handle your business. Wait, unless you’re a bank and you’ve taken their money then they will dictate your pay and how you can run your business. Is that fair? I guess if your on their payroll it is.
The moral of the story, if you don’t like your pay, then start your own business so you can pay yourself and make your own rules instead of crying about how much you are paid. When you work for someone you can try to dictate your wage but you are still under the control of the person who pays you so why not make that person who pays you, you? Anyone who disagrees, go start your own business, let me know how it works for you. While there is risk, there is also reward.
l3wis you mentioned risk and reward, if it’s my ass on the line, I want the reward not some jackass who’s not willing to take the risk. Working for an employer is not the biggest risk.